Is a Sandman still a Samdman?????

[Blocker]

...
I know if someone stoll my tags I would be devastated but would still consider the van a Sandman as the soul would still be there, both the vans soul and my soul connected to the van.
:

To paraphrase - Sandman is a state of mind man.

This will never be answered satisfactorily for everyone, because people are debating from different perspectives.

1. Identity for valuation.
2. Identity for history.
3. Identity for restoration.

The historian will see a Sandman from a different perspective not from value, but from what came off the dealership lot - originality etc.

A general restorer may see it differently too, as they may consider swaps to bodies and replacement chassis differently to the other people.

I say we're all in this together and enjoy it while we can. We're enthusiastic about a little piece of Australian motoring history that either developed from or were influenced by several sub-cultures of their time.

The one thing I think we can all agree on - we do not want to see the Sandman devalued, cast aside or forgotten so we all endeavor to restore, re-create or preserve this piece of history. I'm sure you would all agree that none of us want to see/hear of people intentionally deceiving others with certain claims of authenticity or originality.

I think Byron's database should be considered a National treasure because we all know that this part of motoring data has never been kept, but should be.

[mauser]

haha so we can determine that Queenslanders needed some reminding on what car they were actually building... no wonder, they cant even spell beer.. :-)

Byron, how does the Monaro database work? Do they record things like tags that turn up on ebay without a shell as suspect so if a buyer trys to use them to create an "origional" it will be recognised.


Mauser

[ozbox]

To paraphrase - Sandman is a state of mind man.

This will never be answered satisfactorily for everyone, because people are debating from different perspectives.

1. Identity for valuation.
2. Identity for history.
3. Identity for restoration.

The historian will see a Sandman from a different perspective not from value, but from what came off the dealership lot - originality etc.

A general restorer may see it differently too, as they may consider swaps to bodies and replacement chassis differently to the other people.

I say we're all in this together and enjoy it while we can. We're enthusiastic about a little piece of Australian motoring history that either developed from or were influenced by several sub-cultures of their time.

The one thing I think we can all agree on - we do not want to see the Sandman devalued, cast aside or forgotten so we all endeavor to restore, re-create or preserve this piece of history. I'm sure you would all agree that none of us want to see/hear of people intentionally deceiving others with certain claims of authenticity or originality.

I think Byron's database should be considered a National treasure because we all know that this part of motoring data has never been kept, but should be.

blocker i reckon that what you have said is spot on...

my part of the debate comes from the fact that i have been a licensed motor dealer specialising in collectables for 20 years and hate to see people buying these things on the tags and not knowing that without the matching chassis they are just another van..
educating people re the tags and chassis matching is my mission and the only reason i have such a strong opinion in this type of conversation.....

[HK1837]

To paraphrase - Sandman is a state of mind man.

This will never be answered satisfactorily for everyone, because people are debating from different perspectives.

1. Identity for valuation.
2. Identity for history.
3. Identity for restoration.

The historian will see a Sandman from a different perspective not from value, but from what came off the dealership lot - originality etc.

A general restorer may see it differently too, as they may consider swaps to bodies and replacement chassis differently to the other people.

I say we're all in this together and enjoy it while we can. We're enthusiastic about a little piece of Australian motoring history that either developed from or were influenced by several sub-cultures of their time.

The one thing I think we can all agree on - we do not want to see the Sandman devalued, cast aside or forgotten so we all endeavor to restore, re-create or preserve this piece of history. I'm sure you would all agree that none of us want to see/hear of people intentionally deceiving others with certain claims of authenticity or originality.

I think Byron's database should be considered a National treasure because we all know that this part of motoring data has never been kept, but should be.

Not that it was never kept, it never existed. GMH made no record of what vans and utes were Sandmans and which weren't. Same as they made no record of what were GTS350 4 door HQ's and what were Kingswoods, or what were XU-1 or GTR, or what were HQ LS350 and what were just 202 or other examples. The only reason these can be found on the Service/Warranty records (LC/LJ of these is around on CD) is they have unique engine numbers or other components where no engine number is recorded (like XU-1 gearbox or Muncie or TH400). Plus those records never recorded paint or trim or GVW or seating capacity. What i've done is copied the what Ben Stewart recorded for Monaro, LS, LE and GTS and recorded Sandmans and XU4 instead. Primarily because I saw how valuable this info was to Ben's research, and how helpful it was in identifying fakes. The original file I started came from a few Sandman Ben had recorded (about 20 or so) many of which I had sent the ID to him originally. It used to be in a Mac Word format, I converted it to Excel. Might convert it to a database format one day, currently it is just Excel with each data field in a different column and filtered,one page per assembly plant.

--- Updated ---

haha so we can determine that Queenslanders needed some reminding on what car they were actually building... no wonder, they cant even spell beer.. :-)

Byron, how does the Monaro database work? Do they record things like tags that turn up on ebay without a shell as suspect so if a buyer trys to use them to create an "origional" it will be recognised.


Mauser

It is called "The Holden Monaro Register", run by Ben Stewart. Like my records, there is no record of where where the ID came from as it is a research tool. Plus there is a desire to keep anonimity in the data, so if it gets stolen no-one can track down a car from it. Only speaking for myself, I don't care where the ID for my database comes from - bare tags or a whole car. In many ways i'd rather see some of those Ebay Sandman tags back on a correct body than stuck on a WB or other such wrong body!

[ozbox]

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???

no.. its just another van and there is no real way to prove that its a genuine unless you have the original purchase papers and log books.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???

no ...its identity has been changed and therefore does not correspond numbers wise with its main tag that has the chassis number on it...see question one answer for expansion..

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

yes if it retains its tags and chassis numbers and they all match..

--- Updated ---

just to expand on what i have said above...
die hard restorers that go to other forums and have seen similar discussions may believe that removing tags and putting them on other bodies is wrong but the fact that the vehicle has a removable body from an independant chassis changes the game a bit..
you could buy a chassis from holden and back then the beaters stamped the original chassis number in it so there was no grief in reregistration...
you could also buy a body shell which would come with tags stating it was a gm replacement but again these were launched for ease of reregistration or whatever.
just a big meccano set...:Flower:

[wbute]

I have my opinion on chassis numbers which is much the same as Absinth. I think it adds to the value of a van/ute if they match but it isnt the be all and end all to their identity. However if you say that then it opens the whole can of worms as to the sale of tags on their own. I dont agree with that at all. So i suppose that means that you need the correct chassis to be 100% legit. So....... where do you stand if your chassis is blank? In the same position as any sandmans that have had a chassis replacement and restamp that the owners are unaware of really. There must be heaps of them about.
Owners books and full history to me is the most reliable and therefore any vans/utes with that are the most valuable by a country mile.

[HZSandman]

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???

Yep, if it was a Sandman it is still a Sandman without the tags. It may be harder to prove that's all. E.G. I buy a Sandman brand new, have all the purchase documentation photos of my pride and joy, etc then someone steals the car and it is recovered minus the tags. It is still a Sandman, but not worth as much. Even the insurance company will pay out some of the value based on the fact that is harder to prove it is genuine and therefore not worth as much to others. I know I would not buy a legit Sandman without the tags even if I could say yes it is still a Sandman.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???

Yes...As above. It has just got a new or second hand replacement part. Still would not buy it. Well Maybe :Chin:

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

Uncommitted. If it retains its tags and chassis numbers and they all match.. But to do this the tags must have first been removed from the previous body. Actually I don't know about this one. If just the tags were swapped and every other part was from the donor vehicle I would say no. Not sure I have a definite answer on this one. I know I would feel duped if I bought a car only to find out the tags did not belong to it.

[stickthis]

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???
No. Tags and chassis package together are the ID for the "sandman" No tags = Mockup

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???
No. The whole car in my eyes is not a sandman. The tages are a sandman yes. But the tags could be put onto any other van. Does that make that van a sandman??
So the various sets of sandman tags I have here. Does that mean I own several sandmans as soon as I bolt them onto a new body?? (they never will be btw)

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???
Yes. the "sandman" is in the tags and chassis package. Aslong as its done right and to right series and plant build.

[Vombil]

i think that info is top secret [MENTION=450]b-rock-05[/MENTION]. i found one on the a-pillar, behind the door/fender. lets see if you get a response...

[Steve]

Hi all, just wanted to say I agree with Rico in his reference to what Hainzy said... I think he pretty well summed it up... well said!!!

Have enjoyed reading this thread, I think it's important that the chassis and tags all relate, but that's just me.

I have a HX XX7 van that has been "uted" and I'm planning to do a re-body / era correct restoration. Like all things it will take time, cheers steve