Is a Sandman still a Samdman?????

[Absinth]

educating people re the tags and chassis matching is my mission and the only reason i have such a strong opinion in this type of conversation.....

Nothing wrong with having a strong opinion Greg......:knockout:

blocker i reckon that what you have said is spot on...

my part of the debate comes from the fact that i have been a licensed motor dealer specialising in collectables for 20 years and hate to see people buying these things on the tags and not knowing that without the matching chassis they are just another van..

Greg, I understand the chassis number being the identity of the car as per registration details but I don't understand the Sandman identity by the chassis number...

I don't know how it was in other States but in Qld it really depended on what information the person registering the car wrote down on the form.

I know the registration details of my old HQ Sandman were.... Make..Holden ...Model..Belmont ...Body style.. panelvan

My A9X details were Make... Holden .... Model... Torana .... Body style... Hatchback

No mention of Sandman or A9X anywhere.

Yet a mate who had a 4.2L SS Torana Hatch had: Make... Holden ....Model...SS Torana ... Body style... Hatchback

My XW GT was registered as a Ford... XWFalcon... Sedan ,,,, my XY GTHO was registered as a Ford... GTHO Falcon... Sedan and one of my HX Sandmans was registered as a Holden... Sandman... Panelvan

So in Qld. at least, while the rego papers identify a special vehicle in some cases... in others there is no differentiation from the base model.

[HK1837]

Greg's point is aimed at trying to educate others (not yourself, but newbies) that a Sandman (or GTS or LS or whatever) is valuable and collectable and worth $X when it is whole. Replace it's original chassis number with another and it suddenly is worth 60% of $X. He's trying to stop people paying too much for bling, and focussing on the big picture. He more than any of us talks to people everday and hears what they bought, and what they paid. Just because an Ebay auction shows a picture of a BODY tag with XU3 on it doesn't mean the whole thing is this wonderful thing. Like the "Sandman" on Ebay with the WB body. He also more than anybody wants people to buy the right car for them at the right price and to spend money restoring it, that's how he makes a living. Not to see someone pay $10k for a driving HZ Sandman to find out is is a HX body on a WB chassis with HX ID plates. This is how I read what he says anyway!

[mauser]

That's why discussions like this are so valuable.

I realise that what you buy the origional car for dwarfs what you spend on it. That saying the HQ I am building is for driving and having fun with. Good second hand stuff and do the best job I can with the body is my goal.

Then use it as a fun weekender for doing trips to the coast or whereever.... yay


Mauser

[HK1837]

To paraphrase - Sandman is a state of mind man.

This will never be answered satisfactorily for everyone, because people are debating from different perspectives.

1. Identity for valuation.
2. Identity for history.
3. Identity for restoration.

The historian will see a Sandman from a different perspective not from value, but from what came off the dealership lot - originality etc.

A general restorer may see it differently too, as they may consider swaps to bodies and replacement chassis differently to the other people.

I say we're all in this together and enjoy it while we can. We're enthusiastic about a little piece of Australian motoring history that either developed from or were influenced by several sub-cultures of their time.

The one thing I think we can all agree on - we do not want to see the Sandman devalued, cast aside or forgotten so we all endeavor to restore, re-create or preserve this piece of history. I'm sure you would all agree that none of us want to see/hear of people intentionally deceiving others with certain claims of authenticity or originality.

I think Byron's database should be considered a National treasure because we all know that this part of motoring data has never been kept, but should be.

Not that it was never kept, it never existed. GMH made no record of what vans and utes were Sandmans and which weren't. Same as they made no record of what were GTS350 4 door HQ's and what were Kingswoods, or what were XU-1 or GTR, or what were HQ LS350 and what were just 202 or other examples. The only reason these can be found on the Service/Warranty records (LC/LJ of these is around on CD) is they have unique engine numbers or other components where no engine number is recorded (like XU-1 gearbox or Muncie or TH400). Plus those records never recorded paint or trim or GVW or seating capacity. What i've done is copied the what Ben Stewart recorded for Monaro, LS, LE and GTS and recorded Sandmans and XU4 instead. Primarily because I saw how valuable this info was to Ben's research, and how helpful it was in identifying fakes. The original file I started came from a few Sandman Ben had recorded (about 20 or so) many of which I had sent the ID to him originally. It used to be in a Mac Word format, I converted it to Excel. Might convert it to a database format one day, currently it is just Excel with each data field in a different column and filtered,one page per assembly plant.

--- Updated ---

haha so we can determine that Queenslanders needed some reminding on what car they were actually building... no wonder, they cant even spell beer.. :-)

Byron, how does the Monaro database work? Do they record things like tags that turn up on ebay without a shell as suspect so if a buyer trys to use them to create an "origional" it will be recognised.


Mauser

It is called "The Holden Monaro Register", run by Ben Stewart. Like my records, there is no record of where where the ID came from as it is a research tool. Plus there is a desire to keep anonimity in the data, so if it gets stolen no-one can track down a car from it. Only speaking for myself, I don't care where the ID for my database comes from - bare tags or a whole car. In many ways i'd rather see some of those Ebay Sandman tags back on a correct body than stuck on a WB or other such wrong body!

[Gaddy]

Great conversation, I reckon everyone has come up with great and respectful personal angles. I agree with OZ and others that the plates and chassis should match to keep the cars original identity.

I dont think the original engine is important. Sure its the heart that pumps the blood and powers the body but its gunna get worn out and old and i reckon if you can put a new one in; why not? Of course others value the original engine and thats fine too. Different things are important to different people.

I also reckon as these vans get rarer we cant be too precious and turn them into museum pieces. Gotta get them out there in view of the general public and if that means replicas then why not. (long as theyre not passed off as originals) It all raises the profile. Look at Toranas. You hardly even see them anymore and no one cares if they are original SLRs etc. Just seeing one is cool.

In some ways I reckon the visual image of the crazy decals, GTS mags, blackouts and warm seventies colours are the soul of what a sandman is. Its all about the seventies. A more relaxed time, when people spent their spare money on holiday houses and speedboats. Not portfolios and investment properties. Life was lived in the moment and thats what the sandman was all about. Minimal planning, just jump in the van and go.

Everyones got a story about how many mates they had in the back etc.

If that makes sense....? So yeah, plates and chassis for value/originality/collectors but just getting out there in the van and keepin the dream alive by drivin it somewhere is where the soul is...

Hainzy that is the shit M8!! Well said indeed!!
Ahh The seventies!!
Can we do it again?? Only on Sundays it seems..

[Absinth]

Greg's point is aimed at trying to educate others (not yourself, but newbies) that a Sandman (or GTS or LS or whatever) is valuable and collectable and worth $X when it is whole. Replace it's original chassis number with another and it suddenly is worth 60% of $X. He's trying to stop people paying too much for bling, and focussing on the big picture. He more than any of us talks to people everday and hears what they bought, and what they paid. Just because an Ebay auction shows a picture of a BODY tag with XU3 on it doesn't mean the whole thing is this wonderful thing. Like the "Sandman" on Ebay with the WB body. He also more than anybody wants people to buy the right car for them at the right price and to spend money restoring it, that's how he makes a living. Not to see someone pay $10k for a driving HZ Sandman to find out is is a HX body on a WB chassis with HX ID plates. This is how I read what he says anyway!

Still a lot that need educating then... 5 people fighting it out for a set of HX Sandman XX7 data plates.... L31 M21 with trim 1917-60A

Plates only no chassis.... $860 :knockout:....... that's more than I paid for a whole HX Sandman.

http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAP...m=180618953722

[HK1837]

Pretty silly hey! I suppose if you already had an Acacia Ridge Kingswood van built as a Sandman fake those plates would go well on it. For $860 though if you actually get some parts other than plates like tailgates and doors then it is a bargain!

[mauser]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HX-308-4-SPEE...item45f8847464

This is a WB advertised as a HX Sandman... :-)

Mauser

[Rhino]

Interesting read guy's, just wondering what your thoughts are on these tags ?. Never been removed from the Van, 3 registered owners, about 60,000 kms from new. Is it still a Sandman no matter what ?.

Cheers

[playwme]

Not sure what you're asking there Rhino. It's got XX7 on the plate and the chassis number matches the other plate so it is and always has been a Sandman. (unless I'm not seeing some restamped chassis numbers or something)