Is a Sandman still a Samdman?????

[Vombil]

i think that info is top secret [MENTION=450]b-rock-05[/MENTION]. i found one on the a-pillar, behind the door/fender. lets see if you get a response...

[HK1837]

Since my thoughts on the number stamped on the cowel has been clarified as stamped by the factory, can anyone tell me how this relates to the car, as i cannot find this number duplicated on any of the compliance plates or chassis, and its not a body number as i dont belive the early vans if any had body numbers.

It is a body number that was stamped on the cowl at the Elizabeth body plant (can't remember when it stopped, late HQ I think) and on the firewall at the Pagewood body plant (finished during HZ). It won't match any ID tag numbers but there is a pattern to the numbers (which is what I won't reveal as it helps identify non-original bodies). The number will also appear on the production broadcast sheets for Pagewood assembled vehicles and it appears in GMH build records.

[Steve]

Hi all, just wanted to say I agree with Rico in his reference to what Hainzy said... I think he pretty well summed it up... well said!!!

Have enjoyed reading this thread, I think it's important that the chassis and tags all relate, but that's just me.

I have a HX XX7 van that has been "uted" and I'm planning to do a re-body / era correct restoration. Like all things it will take time, cheers steve

[L31]

This makes me happy . I agree with it all. Cheers. L31

[low75]

Hi.
Legally we now know what makes a factory correct Sandman.
1 - body
2 - chassis
3 - engine block
then add the following
1- body tags
2- chassis number
3- engine number
This is primarily the key components to building a Sandman.
So if we take away the engine or the chassis or both,
it is no longer 100% factory correct,but still a Sandman.
So legally the heart and soul of Sandman is the body and tags.
The key to this is, it is illegal to remove the body tags.
We now understand way this law is in place,
to protect buyers from deceitful sellers.
My opinion, the soul is the tags and the body is the heart.
Just like us, you get the wrong heart and you die,
so will your Sandman.
Sandman still a Sandman
legally, when the factory body is not with the factory fitted tags
Sandman still a Sandman
when the body not correct to the body tags

[wbute]

The chassis number is the only non removable number. Thats why it's users as the identifying number for rego. The tags just tell you what options were with it.

[HK1837]

Hi.
Legally we now know what makes a factory correct Sandman.
1 - body
2 - chassis
3 - engine block
then add the following
1- body tags
2- chassis number
3- engine number
This is primarily the key components to building a Sandman.
So if we take away the engine or the chassis or both,
it is no longer 100% factory correct,but still a Sandman.
So legally the heart and soul of Sandman is the body and tags.
The key to this is, it is illegal to remove the body tags.
We now understand way this law is in place,
to protect buyers from deceitful sellers.
My opinion, the soul is the tags and the body is the heart.
Just like us, you get the wrong heart and you die,
so will your Sandman.
Sandman still a Sandman
legally, when the factory body is not with the factory fitted tags
Sandman still a Sandman
when the body not correct to the body tags

(I'm not singling out this post, just it is the closest to the bottom).

I think many people get the whole identity/originality arguments mixed up. There is a HUGE difference between originality, identity and legality and most seem to get them all mixed up.

Originality (in its purest form) is basically survivor or concours, ie either the car is as per constructed but used (survivor) or restored to the nth degree using factory original parts (concours). Plus you have factory authentic, which is a restored car but not necessarily the whole original car eg engine is mising but a correct one has been used.

Identity can mean a few different things. The legal identity of the vehicle lies with the chassis and engine numbers, but these may not be the originals to the car. The car's actual identity (ie what it original was) may lie in the numbers on the ID plates. In the case of a Sandman the engine and chassis numbers are irrelevant here, BUT so may be the rest of the numbers as we all know ie some you cannot identify from the ID plates - you need to look at the body. So in the case of a HJ Sandman van its identity lies in the tags and body. If the car is a Pagewood ute or HQ van then the identity also lies in the firewall number.

Legality has a few different meanings too. For registration purposes, the chassis and engine numbers are all that really matter (legal identity). Legality of tag removal has a few different areas too. Removing an ADR tag has always been frowned upon as it contains the ADR info applicable to the car. Removal of the other tags was never an issue, but due to fraudulent cases it has recently been made an offence to tamper with these plates too. Different aspects around rebodying or rebirthing vehicles involve both or individually civil or criminal law. Example, if you want a van and don't care what it is, there really is no problem sticking a great WB van shell on a Hz's rails and making it look like a HZ Sandman. As long as you never advertise to sell it as a Sandman then there is no real problems. But of you buy a rusted out HJ Sandman and fit another HJ body to it, and then restore it then you still may be OK, no-one may know except close inspection will show it is not the original body for the car. This may not ever be an issue, but if for example you die and your kids advertise it for sale as a genuine Sandman then they may end up in court under a civil fraud case. In either case the RTA could conceivably take criminal action against you for removal of the ADR tag, but then again they could also do this tou you if you replaced a rusty cowl.

[TwoTees]

Legality has a few different meanings too. For registration purposes, the chassis and engine numbers are all that really matter (legal identity). Legality of tag removal has a few different areas too. Removing an ADR tag has always been frowned upon as it contains the ADR info applicable to the car. Removal of the other tags was never an issue, but due to fraudulent cases it has recently been made an offence to tamper with these plates too. Different aspects around rebodying or rebirthing vehicles involve both or individually civil or criminal law. Example, if you want a van and don't care what it is, there really is no problem sticking a great WB van shell on a Hz's rails and making it look like a HZ Sandman. As long as you never advertise to sell it as a Sandman then there is no real problems. But of you buy a rusted out HJ Sandman and fit another HJ body to it, and then restore it then you still may be OK, no-one may know except close inspection will show it is not the original body for the car. This may not ever be an issue, but if for example you die and your kids advertise it for sale as a genuine Sandman then they may end up in court under a civil fraud case. In either case the RTA could conceivably take criminal action against you for removal of the ADR tag, but then again they could also do this tou you if you replaced a rusty cowl.

HK1837, I think how you differentiated the legal, identity and originality certainly helps to make it clear but I think it needs to be simplified and a few points emphasised with some examples....

1, You have a documented, matching number sandman, You blow your engine with a piston hanging out. You replace your engine. You go to rego with your receipt for the engine and new number, rego updates your vehicle details. As far as the Authority is concerned you have the same vehicle. Your sandman is now no longer a matching number sandman.

2, You have a matching number sandman, You hit a concrete barrier and bend your chassis rails. You replace your chassis rails. You go to rego with your receipt for the chassis and new number and rego updates your vehicle details. As far as the Authority is concerned you have the same vehicle. Your sandman is now no longer a matching number sandman.

3, You drive your matching number sandman on the beach in the water, take it home and park it for 10 years. You decide to put it back on the road and find the body completely rusted beyond repair. You find an exact matching shell and swap it over including the tags. You have just committed a crime. If rego finds out you will never be able to re register it. You will be fined or worse. If you get away with it and sell it, some time down the track and it comes to light what has been done the buck will be passed back to you.

HK1837, in your above post I have highlighted "Recently". Recently actually was 1986.

As far as original goes that is subjective to each person from "It still has original tyres" down to "original shell" and no more. If you are looking to buy a vehicle and are unsure look for documentation of History or a good restoration diary with photos of before and during.

I have attached a copy of the "Unique cars" article on re-shelling that confirms what HK and I have posted here. Read it and take heed.

If you are unclear about the body, chassis and engine thing above have a look at this thread, it has all the legislation and documents to back up what is written above...
http://www.mysandman.com.au/forums/s...rfeit-Sandmans

[wbute]

I am over this same old story. The only way of knowing what the correct original engine number is if you have the first rego papers or owners documents. The engine number does not "match" anything.
Just face it, if you don't have a chassis that matches the tags you don't have a car of as much value. If you tell people you have replaced the body no one really cares. If you hide any changes then expect the usuall consequences if you get caught.
It can't be any more simple than that can it?.....
No doubt this debate will never end.

[HK1837]

Both WB and TwoTees have pretty much got it right. Except:

1986 is recent when we are talking cars (or interest) built from the late 60's!
And when a chassis (with chassis number) is changed you no longer have the same car in terms of identity. The car becomes what the chassis number was, so if it was a HZ van and a HQ van's chassis is used then it is registered and viewed (by RTA, Police etc) as a HQ van. I know this is an oversimplification but it is basically how it works.