Is a Sandman still a Samdman?????

[Absinth]

Some interesting questions were posted in another thread so I thought I'd start up a discussion on it.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

As far as I'm concerned the identity of a vehicle is in its tags.

If the tags are gone than a van is just a Belmont or Holden van and a ute is just a Belmont, Holden or Kingswood ute regardless of previous Sandman heritage. No tags.... No ID.

If you pranged your 76 Sandman in 78 and the chassis was beyond repair you could purchase a new chassis from GMH and have your Sandman repaired. The Sandman ID from the tags is still in place and the car is still a Sandman but has a replacement chassis.

Same applies to a replacement body shell to some degree..... A new body shell could be purchased from GMH to replace a badly damaged one....... However...... a replacement body shell from GMH had its own tags fitted denoting it as a Nasco replacement shell so technically your Sandman ID would now be gone as the original Sandman tags would stay with the old shell.

However.... I know of quite a few panelbeaters that did body replacements to repair vehicles back in the 80's that simply removed the Nasco ID and riveted the original ID from the old shell to the new one as it saved the owners the extra inconvenience of changing the details with the various registration depts.

In my opinion replacing a body shell is no different than replacing damaged panels... as long as the tag ID remains the vehicle is still a Sandman.

Now-a-days as collectors/restorers I still believe the tag ID denotes the vehicle pedigree no matter what has been replaced..... BUT.... a vehicle with matching ID... Body-Chassis-Tags-Engine will be the most valuable... non matching engine to a smaller degree less valuable and non matching chassis decreasing the value by a bit more.

As far as I'm concerned the value in a Sandman, Monaro etc is in the ID tags and in particular how correct the restoration is.
If you have a L31 M21 HQ Sandman that has had a WB Statesman front fitted, HZ GTS dash and Statesman interior fitted, 9" diff fitted and painted Hothouse green.... the Sandman ID is worthless....

This is my personal opinion only and others are welcome to agree or disagree.

[HK1837]

I pretty much agree with most of what Absinth says above, mainly bar the 2nd last paragraph. I've always been an advocate (even back in the mid 80's), that if you were going to build a modified car, start with something with intrinsic value. So as an example, if you wanted to build a hot Torana, start with an SLR5000 and go for broke from there. In the early 90's an rolling SLR5000 with very little rust was worth $1000, a whole car in good nick $3000. Stuff around with it and it would always still have intrinsic value. If you took the slightly cheaper way out and bought a Sunbird or 4cyl Torana you ended up with the same thing, but it had no inherent value other than the parts you put into it.
Come forward to today and you want a nice, good looking van or ute. To me the smart thing to do is find a Sandman. Spend $15,000 well on a Sandman and you'll pretty much not lose your investment. Do the same on a WB van or an original 6cyl 3spd HX and you throw $10,000 away. So to use Absinth's example of an L31 M21 HQ Sandman that has had a WB Statesman front fitted, HZ GTS dash and Statesman interior fitted, 9" diff fitted and painted Hothouse green, if done right to me that is still at least a $12-$15,000 ute (or van) (maybe a HQ isn't such a good example though as it'd have had structural mods to the dash and cowl, so lets say the same thing but in a HJ!). Do the same to a base model HJ-HX and to me the van is worth the parts that create it.
I'm actually using the same philosphy with one of my HK's. The Warwick yellow GTS327 I have will one day cop a 427, Muncie, 12 bolt, Harrop brakes and 18x8" CV8 rims. Probably have a cage and harness as well. I have a near perfect HK 6cyl GTS shell (Silver mink with red trim) that would be a lot easier, but to me the base value isn't there. The GTS327 has a tag and chassis number inherent value of say $15k, the GTS probably $1,000.
Lastly, on body swaps, I have no problem with it but not for all examples. Some have firewall numbers and other features you cannot replicate without effectively breaching rebirthing laws. Some bodies you can replace with an identical example with no identifying numbers, but the body must be from the same assembly plant, series and month or it isn't worth doing in my opinion.

[TwoTees]

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it's tags are gone???

Yes. But not worth the premium that a Sandman pulls. Its value is now the same as a Belmont with the same specs.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if the chassis doesn't match???

I think Holden got it wrong by splitting the body and chassis and not putting all relevant numbers on 1 component that can be used to ID a vehicle.
eg. HK, T, G have the tags and body number on the body so to smash it and replace the front sub section. No worries.
Smash a HQ - WB you loose the body/chassis number.
Having said that, I still think it is a sandman with a chassis change but not worth as much.

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

No. The tags were put on the body shell. That body shell is the vehicles soul.

[Blocker]

Healthy and friendly discussion

[stickthis]

Is a Sandman still a Sandman if it has had a body swap???

No. The tags were put on the body shell. That body shell is the vehicles soul.

Hmmm that is well said. I think original body = worth more $$. But than again if done right who would know?

[jennie285]

Well our tags are in the safe atm, but as soon as we get some rivets they will be back on...over to you Jason :Tongue:

[stickthis]

Should be there any day now Jenny. =)

[b-rock-05]

Since my thoughts on the number stamped on the cowel has been clarified as stamped by the factory, can anyone tell me how this relates to the car, as i cannot find this number duplicated on any of the compliance plates or chassis, and its not a body number as i dont belive the early vans if any had body numbers.

[HZSandman]

[QUOTE=TwoTees;12181No. The tags were put on the body shell. That body shell is the vehicles soul.[/QUOTE]

I like this....

Find the soul of the vehicle. Good way to sum up the answer and this will be different for everyone. No need to define soul, leave it up to the individual.

I know if someone stoll my tags I would be devastated but would still consider the van a Sandman as the soul would still be there, both the vans soul and my soul connected to the van.

Wow that's deep.

[HK1837]

You belong in a Sandman thinking like that!

If the tags are removed, the vehicle is still a Sandman. In a few models you can even still tell it was a Sandman without the tags. However in the act of someone stealing your tags, what they have done is not stolen the identity of the Sandman (they cannot use it, you still have the chassis rails), but they have stolen 75% of the value of your Sandman. They have turned say a $15,000 vehicle into a $4,000 one. If that makes sense.