What is important in a Sandman

[HK1837]

Guys

When the right Sandman ute comes up for sale, I may buy it.

To me the "right" one is as close to original as possible, needing as little work as possible.

I know what is important to me, but I never do anything to a house or car that won't appeal to at least 50% of future buyers.

So if the "right" ute happens to be say a HZ 253, what would you guys as potential future buyers see as detracting from the vehicle? If I were to buy a HZ 253 with its original motor, I would pull it out and keep it, and rebuild a 308 stroker, probably use an M22 or M20 and 3.08 diff and may consider making it a TH400 and 2.78 for a lazy cruiser. In the shed right now I have a 308-327 stroker in pieces, yella Terra heads, HQ-WB extractors, TH400, 2.78:1 ute/van LSD, plus a few aussie 4spds. I'd add factory integrated air to it when I did the engine swap, using original HZ Statesman inner guard, wiring etc however as you all know this means a big hole in the firewall for the wiring and a slot for the heater pipes plus slot in the radiator support. And add power steer. Interior would be done 100% original including radio. Wheels would be 14" or 15" x 7 GTS rims, same tyres all around. I'd possibly put the HZ Sandman logo on the tailgate but no side stripes. Paint would be original colour unless it was panama green or tuxedo black, then I'd use another factory HZ colour, probably white or ultra blue or red. It'd also look stock from outside, not lowered (I don't like lowered cars) and single 2.5" exhaust, original tonneau clips in place.

Ideally I'd like a HQ or HJ 308 auto Kingswood Sandman ute but these are always going to be more expensive and harder to find, so that is why i'm looking at HZ and if it is spot on maybe a HX if I found one needing bugger all work. The right car may not come up for 2 years.

So guys, thoughts on a car with such mods to you as a buyer, noting any original engine would be kept aside to go with the car should it be sold in the future? If it was missing its original motor it may as well have a 308 anyway!

[playwme]

I have a 308-327 stroker in pieces,

Can you tell me more about this? I've got a burnt HJ van that I bought which a few people kept telling me had a 327 in it. I never opened the bonnet till after I got it home and the block had 308 stamped on it so I assumed said people were wrong. Does the 327 crank fit in the 308 block? I remember this van used to go pretty hard before it caught fire, and it had a 9 inch so I assume they may have been concerned about breaking the standard diff.

Paint would be original colour unless it was panama green or tuxedo black, then I'd use another factory HZ colour, probably white or ultra blue or red.

What if original colour was Durham Beige?

[wbute]

I think the minor mods for the factory make no difference as its something that is correct and makes it more user friendly.

To me the engine conversion is easily reversed if you were to sell it but it would be important to keep the original to go with it if you sold it. The engine conversion is a thing that would maybe turn me off. I fully appreciate why you would do it though! Better if it was a 308 to start with as there would be no obvious difference then until you drove it.

All the other things are no problem really, except if I found a tuxedo black one that would be a major bonus. Love black cars even if they are the worst for a million reasons. (You should see the paint on our black prado after 100000km! Not very nice.)

Depends why you are building it really. If you are building it to keep, why worry about your plans, and if you are going to sell it you can easily test the market and if it wont pull the dollars you reckon its worth put it back to standard.

[HK1837]

Can you tell me more about this? I've got a burnt HJ van that I bought which a few people kept telling me had a 327 in it. I never opened the bonnet till after I got it home and the block had 308 stamped on it so I assumed said people were wrong. Does the 327 crank fit in the 308 block? I remember this van used to go pretty hard before it caught fire, and it had a 9 inch so I assume they may have been concerned about breaking the standard diff.



What if original colour was Durham Beige?

327 stroker is just an offset ground 308 crank, using SJ Chev rods and 350 pistons (sometimes Hemi 6cyl rods). People sometimes call them 330 or 333 but those capacities are usually at +060". This one is standard bore, and it is a trimatic block so it'd probably have to stay as a manual unless the car was originally a 253 trimatic. The other option is to use one of the VR/VS blocks I have in the shed and stick a 350 stroker crank into it with replacement 215/220i HSV pistons, and disguise it up as a red 308 (would be a TH400 though as blocks are TH pattern). The beauty of a manual in a HX/Z though is you don't have to fit half the pollution equipment, so no EGR, only 1 x Xmas tree plumbed, you can run extractors etc.

If I was to buy a HX ute in Mint Julip, Tuxedo Black or Durham Beige it'd get resprayed in probably Chamois, Mandarin or Aquarius. If it was an original untouched Durham or Tuxedo and the paint was good i'd leave it though. Mint Julip i'd probably not buy in that condition, or if I did it'd want to be cheap so I could respray it.

--- Updated ---

I think the minor mods for the factory make no difference as its something that is correct and makes it more user friendly.

To me the engine conversion is easily reversed if you were to sell it but it would be important to keep the original to go with it if you sold it. The engine conversion is a thing that would maybe turn me off. I fully appreciate why you would do it though! Better if it was a 308 to start with as there would be no obvious difference then until you drove it.

All the other things are no problem really, except if I found a tuxedo black one that would be a major bonus. Love black cars even if they are the worst for a million reasons. (You should see the paint on our black prado after 100000km! Not very nice.)

Depends why you are building it really. If you are building it to keep, why worry about your plans, and if you are going to sell it you can easily test the market and if it wont pull the dollars you reckon its worth put it back to standard.

That's the sort of stuff I was thinking, although finding a car with original engine is getting less common, so if the original is gone it may as well have a 308 in it as it is no more correct than another 253.

Black looks unreal, I just don't want a black car as they are a b!tch to own, and look dirty 10 minutes after washing. Even as a collector car they are bad news. Take one to a car show and it'll be dirty simply from driving it onto the field! Dark blue is probably as bad.

I never build/buy anything with the intention of keeping it, that is the one of the easiest ways to lose money whether it be car, house, shares, whatever. You never know what the future holds. Hence part of the reason for the question posed by this post. I suppose an adendum to the question is, should I try to find a matching numbers vehicle even though the engine won't get used? Basically how much do you guys devalue a Sandman missing it's original engine, all things equal? To me i'd be looking at around 25% de-value, possibly more? How will this go in the future? What if the Sandman was originally a 6cyl HQ-HX (does anyone care?)? For what I want to do a 6cyl HJ Kinswood Sandman ute would be ideal, but impossible to find!

[playwme]

Awesome, thanks for that info. Might have to drag that motor out of the shed and have a peek at the internals.

I'm probably not the right person to give you info on the market as I find it difficult spending huge amounts on 1 car that's perfect, when I could have 5 cars that are ok but need minor fixing for the same price. However from what I've seen, building a car to suit the fussiest of the numbers matching buyers doesn't really look to be a financially beneficial operation, even with the higher price you will achieve when selling. Those last 5% of details will no doubt cost that extra amount that can blow a budget.

Those mods you mention however, give a car that has all the desirable options that will make an appealing package. While it may not be as that particular vehicle left the factory it is all stuff that was available and your just building a top of the range fully optioned vehicle. A good example are the $30,000 utes that seven8twomotors sells. They're nowhere near factory original but that extra effort to turn it into a $40,000 factory original vehicle might cost more than the extra $10,000.

You don't want to be selling it to someone who considers it an investment cause they'll want it perfect at the lowest price possible. Build it to appeal to the guy who wants all the fruit that makes his mates envious. Isn't that what life is about?

[ambientgoat]

If I was to buy a HX ute in Mint Julip, Tuxedo Black or Durham Beige it'd get resprayed in probably Chamois, Mandarin or Aquarius.

Firstly, I believe there is a law against repainting a Mint Julip car anything but mint julip. If this isn't currently the case my local member will be getting a letter from me shortly.

Back on topic, my personal feeling with 'hero' cars, like sandmans, monaros, muscle cars. Value goes as follows.
Factory original and un-restored
Restored to factory original
Modified (excluding show cars with a massive following like checkmate)

I did have the chance at buying a somewhat rusty metallic brown sandman about two years back for around 1500 and I walked away because there was no way I could have a brown car and I didn't want to have a sandman in not the original colour.

I'm slowly (I should put a sign above my shed that says 'snails pace garage') building my HZ ute (factory 202 auto, bench seat, white, brown interior) as the HZ sandman ute I wish I owned (308, 4speed, windsor blue, black interior). As in my mind, if it's not going to be all original, why start with a sandman.

But this is just my 2 cents on value, and I know others don't like repli-cars.

[HK1837]

Firstly, I believe there is a law against repainting a Mint Julip car anything but mint julip. If this isn't currently the case my local member will be getting a letter from me shortly.

I'm slowly (I should put a sign above my shed that says 'snails pace garage') building my HZ ute (factory 202 auto, bench seat, white, brown interior) as the HZ sandman ute I wish I owned (308, 4speed, windsor blue, black interior). As in my mind, if it's not going to be all original, why start with a sandman.

But this is just my 2 cents on value, and I know others don't like repli-cars.

Hehe. I reckon there should have been a law against painting them bright green in the first place! I like dark metallic greens but not bright green. I've got ID plates off a HJ XX7 van that was Jamaica lime, it got cut up and crushed because no-one wanted it. Any other colour and it would probably be still around as it was a good body. It was a very basic old van though: 202, M20 and drum brakes.

I don't want a replica, I'd rather leave a HJ-HZ ute as a Kingswood than make it look like a Sandman. I've always preached that the smart move is to modify a collectable, as it has intrinsic value because of what it is, eg flare and modify an SL/R as it is always worth something, Sunbirds are scrap metal or body section donors! The exceptions are probably coupes and 2 doors, as these hold value due to their valuable parts.

[wbute]

Build it how you want Byron, if its done right it will be more valuable than a badly/unsympathetically restored 100% original one anyway and it will be more user friendly.

[HK1837]

I intend to, I just wanted to get a feeling from current Sandman enthusiasts re driveline and A/C mods and how you view them wrt to value.

[HZSandman]

I would as a buyer be looking for the most original Sandman as possible.

On my hit list would be:
a good colour (for me the bright 70's colours are the go)
308
m21
original engine, chasis, painted colour, interior, etc.
original documentation/history

Then try and stay as original as possible.

I have added power steering and want to add air con to ours in the future. As I do not have the original sales documentation thee "could" have been added from factory anyway.

Would never recomend painting in a different colour. Way to expensive to change later. Interior ok to change as this can be returned to stock pretty easily and cheaply. (we should have buckskin but went for black instead)

With more and more Sandmans coming on to the market nowdays it is not too hard to wait for the right one that will tick all the boxes.

I agree. Buy and build with the intention of selling even if it is not on the radar at the miniute. Therefore buy the car you want from the outset even if you have to wait to do it.