Counterfeit Sandmans

[Sandaro]

In reply to the original question:- CAVEAT EMPTOR- buyer beware. This latin saying has always and still applies to all cars. Whether its a reshelled sandman or a cut and shut corolla, the buyer needs to do thorough research and inspections. That's not to say a buyer might not have recourse to legal action, but that is costly and what if the seller is a man of straw?

I know that if I was spending big bucks on a Sandman I'd like to see documented proof (photos/paperwork etc) plus do a thorough inspection. And if necessary with an expert in the field if I felt I didn't know enough.

Some sellers are just dodgy. Unfortunately some buyers go in with blinkers on and believe anything (used car salesman would be out of work if this wasn't the case).

Last month a guy in Melbourne was selling a "bathurst" HT monaro- swears it was 81837 but the tags got stolen, said any expert would verify the body as Bathurst. I could tell from a simply inspection of the photos that it wasn't. Bullcrapper. But he is hoping some ignorant person wanting to believe the hype will buy it for the bargain price of $45,000 !!! (no running gear either!!- not sure if the thieves stole that too. Ha ha)

Steve

[Dago]

One of the reasons I don't mind not having a sandman is that I feel it just limits you to much, you cannot change colors, interiors, drivelines, anything without affecting its originality. I would just feel way to limited creatively. But that is my opinion and I can completely understand the mentality of keeping things original, its just too valuable and rare a model to start messing with it. (I imagine I would be crucified on this site for messing with an original!) - but saying that some of my favourite old school show vans started off as sandmans and I would hate to see them changed back!!

I'll do my van up within reason of originality. But not going to town. I don't have the time or resources to go down that road. What I would like to do, is get my HQ Shell and graft a whole heap of HZ GTS goodies and late model motor gearbox combo. Then, (Kill me here) Mock it up as a HZ Sandman. Just to look at, as it drives past. I have no interest in passing it off as original. It will have HQ tags. But for the buyer who wants the look, They'll get it. Neat clean HQ/Z

I'll advertise it as a HQ van, Mock up HZ Sandman. Hope this doesn't come under counterfit. The image is more important to some than the technicalities. And at a third of the cost.

[HK1837]

Hey everyone,

It would seem this is a pretty hot subject on here at the moment and I felt like having a say on the issue.

As we are all aware the price of aussie muscle cars have skyrocketed in recent years, putting them beyond the reach of most people. This in turn increases lesser models of the same shape/style as well. Replicas of all the popular models have always been an issue, but in my opinion they have there place. Who wouldn't like to drive around in a phase III replica? I wouldn't care if it wasn't original at least it didn't have the $500,000 price tag...
Imagine what you could do to the performance of that replica if you spent just part of the difference in price on it? It would outperform the original, that's for sure!

I also think that replica sandmans have there place as well, it is such an icon I bet there would be alot of people who would love to drive a replica. As it has been said it only becomes an issue when it comes time to sell and it is passed off as being an original.

Mega buck restorations of original sandmans are likely to be a good investment, provided they are done legally.... I'll let you guys argue that one out.

One of the reasons I don't mind not having a sandman is that I feel it just limits you to much, you cannot change colors, interiors, drivelines, anything without affecting its originality. I would just feel way to limited creatively. But that is my opinion and I can completely understand the mentality of keeping things original, its just too valuable and rare a model to start messing with it. (I imagine I would be crucified on this site for messing with an original!) - but saying that some of my favourite old school show vans started off as sandmans and I would hate to see them changed back!!

Another point I wanted to raise relates to your debate on chassis/body/compliance plates. I had a look at my van before and found that my chassis number is on the compliance plate on the drivers side, and also my body shell is stamped with a number as well - next to the compliance plate on the passenger side. Has anyone else noticed this with theirs?

HQ-early HZ Pagewood BAP bodies have a body number on the firewall, which despite what people tell you can link to the ID plates (i'm not going to ever divulge how as it can help me to spot rebodies). Elizabeth HQ BAP bodies have a similar number up on the cowl up to a certain date.

[mauser]

Hi,

I would just like to say thank you to everybody for putting their views forward on this matter and not making it personal and listening to others. I raised this as it was bothering me that people were taking our advice without being informed of the consequences. Like b-rock-05 I personally would rather see someone save a very special vehicle and drive it with pride. For me thats what it is worth not the money.

Sandmans arn't like XU1's, A9X's & HK327's, they are the thoughbreds.... it's like a Kombi, its about the lifestyle.

Mauser

Life's a beach!!!

HZSandadd.jpg

[playwme]

it's like a Kombi,

Hey, that's a bit uncalled for!

[HZSandman]

I once had an SLR Torana that was smashed from behind and then ran into another car from the front. Point is, it was pretty much stuffed body wise. But the panel beaters cut the back off the car and welded a new one on. Then they replaced all the ront hanging panels. I guestt the only thin left from the original was the flooo, doors aand roof. It was full of bog but still original.

Now suppose they had got another body and transfered that onto my chassis.

Which method of repair would you rather if it was your SLR? I know which one I would have taken given the chance. I would not have considered it a fake. and if I sold it I would be
I happy to tell the true history of the car.

I think a replica becomes a fake when the seller sets out to deceive. Intent is critical.

Buyer beware... If it is a resto see the pics. If it is iin original coondition then I would want the tags to original and not tampered with.

I have noticed more cars appearing on ebay that say Sandman when they are clearly not. A few years ago people did not know the difference and just advertised as a Sandman regarless. Now people are deliberately saying Sandman to try and get more money knowing they don't have one. Their intent is to trick at best or decieve the buyer into parting with more money. Therefore I would say that there has been an increase in "fake" Sandmans advertised.

I have even let a few sellers know they do not have a Sandman and they do not amend the ad. That is Fake territory as far as I am concerned. Buyer beware.

When the price for a restored Sandman exceeds the cost of the restoration which at the moment is not the case this sort of behaviour will become more prevelent.

[Gaddy]

A bit late in on this, but what if i write my van off, then find another body that has no tags and use it to replace my damaged one! What would the RTA require if i went down the "honest" road and didnt just use my original tags on the replacement body??

[HK1837]

What they want you to do is leave the tags on the donor body.

[hx-sandman]

Without naming names has anyone come across any fake/counterfeit Sandman in the past 12/24 months for sale online?

Do you think there has been an increase in purposely faking a Sandman or do you think people are still not educated enough to know the difference.

I've seen some selectively advertised "Sandman's". Using paint and trim as proof, neglecting to mention the seating capacity of 3 or that they are HX/HZ Kingswoods.

It's certainly able to be done with a little bit of information and a little bit of work. It's not difficult to get tags made/re-made and as a Sandman wasn't a performance model, just an expensive non kingswood, kingswood with (or without) stickers, the list of bits is fairly short.

[mauser]

Sandman wasn't a performance model, just an expensive non kingswood, kingswood with (or without) stickers, the list of bits is fairly short.

Nither was an SLR5000, SS hatch, GTR Torana, SS HQ, or the pretenders HJ-Z Monaro.... Sandmans fit in here!

In my opinion of course.

Mauser


My first two cars were bog stock ex-family cars.

LCGTR1.jpgbluelh.jpg

... it's just that they had race-bred cousins.