Counterfeit Sandmans

**ozbox** · 07-12-2011, 09:31 PM

2t...i dont need to be diplomatic..i live in a real world not one of fantasy by irrelevant documents...i also do this stuff everday for a living as stated before and have done for 30 years.
problem here is you get one anal person and there opinion via documents that no one ever takes any notice of and they become an expert without any experience.
if these documents are so correct why have i done what they say cant be done ?...LEGALLY..
its only that people have big mouths that this stuff becomes a debate about what is and isnt legal..also people read the type of document you put up and they get paranoid that it cant be done...BUT IT CAN...and legally..

**TwoTees** · 07-12-2011, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by ozbox

2t...i dont need to be diplomatic..i live in a real world not one of fantasy by irrelevant documents...i also do this stuff everday for a living as stated before and have done for 30 years.
problem here is you get one anal person and there opinion via documents that no one ever takes any notice of and they become an expert without any experience.
if these documents are so correct why have i done what they say cant be done ?...LEGALLY..
its only that people have big mouths that this stuff becomes a debate about what is and isnt legal..also people read the type of document you put up and they get paranoid that it cant be done...BUT IT CAN...and legally..

Yes you can do it legally as you have done but if the ute that you started with was a Sandman how could you ever convince any one that it was genuine with 2 ADR plates? and a panel van body tag that was not sandman? What you did was legal and documented with the resulting plates. If some clown was to take a Sandman, re-shell it (Not re-body) the tags will not document what has happened to the vehicle and not be legal. This is what we are talking about.

Is the GT in unique cars able to be registered again? NO! People do take these documents seriously.

I am not claiming to be any sort of expert. I simply do not believe everything I hear. Even from people who have been in the industry for 30 years. So I went out and researched what is correct and what is not. I have made plenty of phone calls to tech officers in the RTA to get their opinions and they generally reflect what I am reading.
You as an "industry professional" have been advocating re-birthing on a public forum. You wear your "Classic OZ wreck" hat when you are here and that bears weight with how people take your advice. I really hope that there is no one here that has started a re-shell on your advice and if there is, that they do not have any problems in the future.

At least now they can read the rules and know what sort of questions they should be asking, then make an informed decision as to how they will repair their vehicle.

**HK1837** · 07-12-2011, 09:35 PM

Twotees is spot on regarding removal of ADR plate and putting on another body being not lawful in NSW. Not sure about other States. Would it stop me? No it wouldn't. I'd still repair the vehicle (front cut, cowl repair etc). I'd still buy a good 1-tonner cab and put it onto another chassis, and put the chassis's ID plates onto the cab.

When it really came down to it, the legal identity on a HQ-HZ is the rails and plates. So in theory, and in compliance with the rules showing how stupid the rules are, one way to perform a body swap is to use the whole cowl section off the original car complete with ID plates on another shell, and then put that shell on the chassis that matches the ID plates. Stupid? Yes. You never interfered with or tampered with the plates. To me this means the rules are there to primarily stop rebirthing (ie stolen car made legitimate) and fraud (GT Falcon owners primarily are the most precious locals about this). Repairing a car you own with parts was probably never the main intention of any of these rules.

And this quote is spot on too:

You may get away with for now but in the future, if you sell your vehicle as genuine it might just come back and bite you and remove a large wad of cash from your bank balance. Check out the unique cars magazine article from a few months back.

It all comes down to how you advertise and sell the vehicle if you choose to sell it. That court case was civil, not criminal.

**ozbox** · 07-12-2011, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by HK1837

Twotees is spot on regarding removal of ADR plate and putting on another body being not lawful in NSW.

regardless of what may be stated in the rules...if an auvis examiner contacts the technical section of the rta and they instruct him to have the adr matching tag to chassis attached back on the body of the new vehicle do you argue the point?....its obvious by this that these morons do not know the rules....
now just to throw something back in the air....i cant sell a body shell with tags that is removed from a chassis but i can sell a rusty as pg13 one attached to a chassis and also do the same with a unibodied car..i can do this as a dealer quite legally..
this is a discussion that will never be won regardless of all the legal paperwork thrown out for all to see because people will do what they want and if they keep there mouths shut no one will ever know...simple as that.

**V6HQUTE** · 07-12-2011, 09:57 PM

ive seen a few utes with the firewall stamped

**Robbo** · 07-12-2011, 10:18 PM

Well put @ Blocker.

**hainzy** · 08-12-2011, 12:47 AM

Good debate. Again. Even if it is going down the same track. I like how everyone has different angles on this good ol debate!

I also reckon it comes down to how much you pay for a car.

I mean if you have a matching numbers car, its worth lets say 30k. If you have a car with a different era engine but otherwise matching, then it might be worth 25... if you have a car with a different chassis or police number or missing tags, it might be worth 10 to 15k.. Im just making these amounts up, but my point is that you should get what you pay for value-wise. If you buy a car and you know the numbers dont add up, but its registerable and you pay minimal coin for it, then everyones happy. You drive the car and enjoy it. If you pay more for it cos you think its something its not and you find out, then youre p*#*d off and driving the car is no longer enjoyable.

I have an LX SL/R torana but it has the wrong engine and a police chassis number. As such I know its worth less than a matching numbers one. Im doing a bit of a resto on it, but not spending megabucks and not expecting megabucks if i ever sell it. Ill enjoy it for what it is. A cool aussie classic. It turns a bogans head, and that same bogan says 'awesome' as it whizzes past. That bogan doesnt check the numbers. He just sees the cool car.

Same with sandmans. If its not matching numbers, dont over invest and dont over expect returns if you sell it. However cars are to be enjoyed so if youre only doing it for yourself and not the resale then do whatever you want.

My point...?? I cant remember anymore, but a cars only worth what you can sell it for...

**TwoTees** · 08-12-2011, 07:42 AM

Hainzy,
I reckon you are spot on. I agree a vehicle is worth what it is and not what it has been made to look like. As long as no one is doing any thing to deceive I have no problem with it. If you are buying a matching number sandman it should be just that. Not an ex plumbers van with a different vehicles identity grafted to it.

Here's a classic example on evil bay
HG Monaro GTS V8 manual tags (saginaw) BRISBANE BUILD highly desired combo HK HT
hg tags.jpg
What will become of these? Will someone pay a lot of money for this desirable combo perhaps attached to a 161 base model monaro?

It has been suggested before and I would suggest it again that a register of dodgy ID's be started and when ever a dodgy set of tags or a completely rusted out piece of crap with matching numbers comes up for sale they are recorded and recorded and stored in a way that google can find numbers (ie not just photos but photos and text) and it may just save someone some heartache after they part with a large amount of cash for what they think is a genuine desirable vehicle.
Even my van should go on it because it has not got the original chassis. If it turns up one day with a matching chassis you can find out that once upon a time it was not matching. It will never be matching while in my possession. It is what it is and will stay what it is. A Sandman that has been in an accident and repaired with a used chassis.

**Sandaro** · 08-12-2011, 09:19 AM

In reply to the original question:- CAVEAT EMPTOR- buyer beware. This latin saying has always and still applies to all cars. Whether its a reshelled sandman or a cut and shut corolla, the buyer needs to do thorough research and inspections. That's not to say a buyer might not have recourse to legal action, but that is costly and what if the seller is a man of straw?

I know that if I was spending big bucks on a Sandman I'd like to see documented proof (photos/paperwork etc) plus do a thorough inspection. And if necessary with an expert in the field if I felt I didn't know enough.

Some sellers are just dodgy. Unfortunately some buyers go in with blinkers on and believe anything (used car salesman would be out of work if this wasn't the case).

Last month a guy in Melbourne was selling a "bathurst" HT monaro- swears it was 81837 but the tags got stolen, said any expert would verify the body as Bathurst. I could tell from a simply inspection of the photos that it wasn't. Bullcrapper. But he is hoping some ignorant person wanting to believe the hype will buy it for the bargain price of $45,000 !!! (no running gear either!!- not sure if the thieves stole that too. Ha ha)

Steve

**HK1837** · 08-12-2011, 07:18 AM

Agree Greg. By my understanding, the RTA bloke that told you to put the ute's ADR plate on the van body was misreading their own rules. The way I read it you should have ended up with the ute's chassis and the van's ID plates, not 2 x ADR plates. Doesn't matter anyway, you did what you were instructed to so it is all legal. Again shows how stupid the rules are!