Counterfeit Sandmans

[playwme]

The question I asked was; has anyone noticed an increase, not what makes a genuine or can it be done etc.

I believe that in order to answer the question on whether there has been an increase it must first be determined what constitutes a genuine or a counterfeit. How do we otherwise determine the numbers?

Personally, I'd prefer that anything with terminal rust be sent to Ozbox for wrecking and the tags melted down. There's way too many "barn finds" getting resurrected and flooding the market (which makes ours less rare and desirable). I wouldn't consider a vehicle that had been reshelled with a secondhand body as genuine, no matter how correct. It's not the same vehicle that left the factory. You've destroyed the identity of that old base model vehicle to fix a high spec model. If I need a heart transplant and George Clooney gets killed in a car crash and they transplant his heart into me, does that then make me George Clooney? Would that be right of me to assume the identity of the higher spec model?

Of course, determining if a reshell has happened is nigh on impossible for most people, especially with a restored car. I guess that's why all mine are old and faded (and cheap). At least I know what I've got. Not that I'm planning on riding the wave of cashing in.

[Blocker]

George Clooney donated to heart to his pet pig. you're outta luck.

[Taily]

It is obvious that this is (and will continue to be) an emotive issue with very strongly held differing views. From what I have read most are in heated agreement and my opinion is that there is nothing wrong with someone wanting to "do-up" their van or ute into a replica. Where the issue arises is when that replica is advertised for sale without any mention of it being said replica (ie; counterfeit) - then it becomes a rip-off. How many more "XY Phase III's" (with plastic shakers and 6000rpm dashes etc) were getting around in the early 90's than were originally produced by F... Fo.... For... (I can't even say it)? Gawd knows but I bet there were better than 20% more than ever produced getting around then.

The issue of re-bodying I don't know the ins and outs of suffice to say that while the body is a significant part of the whole unit, occasionally they reach their use-by date where they are no longer viable. So I guess the adage "what maketh the beast?" (ie; is it the sum of its parts or the whole of the vehicle) holds true and it may well be what is a genuine item to one person may well not be to another. Same deal with a rusted/damaged chassis rail. Everyone will have their own ideas of what is acceptable to them is what I am saying - some will see it as a Sandman with a new lease on life and others will see it as a bodge-up. From what has been said obviously all states are yet to get their vehicle laws aligned still (thought that was supposed to have happened 10 years ago). Ozbox has documented his experience with that issue first hand so he's in the know there as far as the legalities in NSW.

Back to the original topic. If I could put forward another scenario: What if you took a very close look at your own vehicle (non Sandman) and found certain identifiers on it that you know were as fitted/delivered from the factory (as for what ever reason you knew the vehicle history and/or original purchaser) that identified it as one? What would you do with it?

Me, I like 'em as they are, but I can certainly appreciate a well done replica or one with a new body or major component for a genuine reason (ie; rusted-out or totalled in some other way). I don't agree with just removing tags from one completely stuffed complete vehicle and just afixing them to another one but others might I guess. Flame away, I've got a thick skin.:shifty:

Regards,

Dave.

[TwoTees]

you obviously learnt nothing from that 27 or how ever many page thread that you were so wrong in...
you sir are a danger to what is correct and legal with your misinformed knowledge...
why would the vehicle not be able to be registered??
looking so forward to your reply???

Good evening Ozbox and everyone else.
Oz, it's interesting to note that your deplomacy skills have yet to improve.
So here is your reply I am sure you have been on the edge of seat waiting to get it. It will take a bit of time so grab a cuppa and settle back and enjoy!

All States have very similar laws to each other but some are very hard to get good information that is consistant and covers all areas. Victoria has the best documents that explain the whole picture so I will mostly stick with Victoria.

Firstly a document about repairing vehicles that simply spells it out loud and clear. Re-shelled vehicles will not be accepted for registration. Period!

http://www.vacc.com.au/Portals/1/pdf...odyrepairs.pdf
vsi25 vic.jpg

Note: "A Body in White" is the term used to described a brand new shell from the manufacturer with no identity.

Now I hear you yelling A HQ-WB has a body that is seperate from the chassis and a body swap is legall.
Yes it is legall to swap a body but you must not remove the compliance plate from a body shell.
You must not use a build plate from another vehicle to change it's identity.
How could this ever be considered a Sandman?
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rd...writetable.pdf
Repair methods.jpg


Here is some legislation regarding tags and identifying numbers. Note the words "any vehicle identifier" and "manufacturer's build plate"

Victorian Road Safety Act 1986 - No. 127 of 1986
Version 96 incorporating amendments as at 11 October 2006

Part 6—Offences and Legal Proceedings

72 Forgery etc. of documents and identification marks

(1A) A person is guilty of an offence if that person—
(a) forges; or
(b) fraudulently alters or uses; or
(c) fraudulently lends or allows to be used by any other person—
any vehicle identifier, engine identification number, identification plate, manufacturer's build plate or any other plate, label or mark that uniquely identifies a vehicle and sets it apart from similar vehicles.

Penalty: 60 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months.

NSW. Note the use of words "Remove", "stamped on or otherwise affixed to" meaning pop rivits in our case.

NSW Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Act 1997 No 119

Part 3, Section 21A - Offences relating to identification numbers of engines and other parts of motor vehicles or trailers:

A person must not:
(a) if the person is not the manufacturer—
stamp or affix or cause or permit any person to stamp or affix any identification number on or to the engine, engine block or any other part prescribed by the regulations of a motor vehicle or trailer without the written authority of the Authority and except as prescribed by the regulations, or
(b) except as required or permitted by or under this Act—alter, deface, remove or obliterate any identification number stamped on or otherwise affixed to the engine, engine block or any other part prescribed by the regulations of a motor vehicle or trailer, or
(c) without lawful authority or excuse, have in the person’s possession any engine, engine block or other prescribed part of a motor vehicle or trailer knowing that the identification number stamped on or otherwise affixed to it has been altered, defaced, removed or obliterated otherwise than as required or permitted by or under this Act. Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both.

I have more but I think that is enough to get the point accross. If you want to see legislation for a state or territory I have not listed let me know I have them all.

So what does this mean? YES you can do a body swap with a chassis/body type vehicle BUT the body shell must retain its original Compliance plate and you cant just attach another body plate to change its identity. The body plate has a body number that is the unique serial number for that body shell.


Have another look at the document above about repairing vehicles with chassis/body.......

Even if you are only to repair a vehicle by doing a front or rear cut and the vin is to be removed to do the repair you must Contact a VicRoads VASS signatory prior to commencing repair. If the repair is completed without VASS supervision then vehicle will not be eligible for registration. This approach could also be taken by an RTA officer if he/she feels the need just because you repaired/repainted your vehicle and removed the ADR plate in doing so. Unlikley, but certainly possible if you piss him/her off.

If you still don't think this information is correct try this.....
Ring your local police station and say "I am just about to put a new body shell on my HQ-Z chassis and am planning to take the compliance plate off my old body shell and place it on my new body shell! OK?"
I will bet the police will be knocking on your door before you can say "Now where did I put my pop rivit gun?"

You may get away with for now but in the future, if you sell your vehicle as genuine it might just come back and bite you and remove a large wad of cash from your bank balance. Check out the unique cars magazine article from a few months back.

It is very clear that the Body is the primary vehicle component and very protected by law. It is also very clear that you have also considered the Chassis to be the primary vehicle conponent. This explains your confusion in the chassis thread. A vehicle can have a replacement engine, a replacement chassis, replacement panels but you can not touch the body shell. If you do without the authorities approval, you run the risk of not getting it re-registered. Do you get it now?

[b-rock-05]

Well this is all very interesting, But for my part i dont care, I bought a very rusty HQ sandman that had resided under a gum tree for 25 years, it had all the right gear all numbers matched as per this great site, But the shell was beyond saving rusted beyond recognition , so i handed over much more than i should have, ( But lets not talk about that ) And purchased another HQ belmont van in great condition for the reshell for much more than i should have ( but lets not talk about that either ) Now i have now saved a very rare HQ 308 4 speed barbados green sandman from the scrap heap or a prospective garden ornament, Im am spending a lot of cash to bring it back to its former glory and loving every minute, So in summing up to me and im sure most of you will agree it will still be an original HQ sandman, I look forward to sharing the final result with you all, and the rebuild photos, Thanks fellow sandmaners, KEEPING THE SANDMAN LEGEND ALIVE !!!

[TwoTees]

Well this is all very interesting, But for my part i dont care, I bought a very rusty HQ sandman that had resided under a gum tree for 25 years, it had all the right gear all numbers matched as per this great site, But the shell was beyond saving rusted beyond recognition , so i handed over much more than i should have, ( But lets not talk about that ) And purchased another HQ belmont van in great condition for the reshell for much more than i should have ( but lets not talk about that either ) Now i have now saved a very rare HQ 308 4 speed barbados green sandman from the scrap heap or a prospective garden ornament, Im am spending a lot of cash to bring it back to its former glory and loving every minute, So in summing up to me and im sure most of you will agree it will still be an original HQ sandman, I look forward to sharing the final result with you all, and the rebuild photos, Thanks fellow sandmaners, KEEPING THE SANDMAN LEGEND ALIVE !!!

B rock,
At least you can now make a decision based on fact not what one person thinks is right.
It would be a shame if you get to the registration point and they tell you to take it home and don't bring it back and you didn't see it coming.
I really hope for you that it all goes well.

[b-rock-05]

Thanks, Ive done a lot of homework , eyes wide open, and im sure all will go well,

[ozbox]

2t...i dont need to be diplomatic..i live in a real world not one of fantasy by irrelevant documents...i also do this stuff everday for a living as stated before and have done for 30 years.
problem here is you get one anal person and there opinion via documents that no one ever takes any notice of and they become an expert without any experience.
if these documents are so correct why have i done what they say cant be done ?...LEGALLY..
its only that people have big mouths that this stuff becomes a debate about what is and isnt legal..also people read the type of document you put up and they get paranoid that it cant be done...BUT IT CAN...and legally..

[HK1837]

Twotees is spot on regarding removal of ADR plate and putting on another body being not lawful in NSW. Not sure about other States. Would it stop me? No it wouldn't. I'd still repair the vehicle (front cut, cowl repair etc). I'd still buy a good 1-tonner cab and put it onto another chassis, and put the chassis's ID plates onto the cab.

When it really came down to it, the legal identity on a HQ-HZ is the rails and plates. So in theory, and in compliance with the rules showing how stupid the rules are, one way to perform a body swap is to use the whole cowl section off the original car complete with ID plates on another shell, and then put that shell on the chassis that matches the ID plates. Stupid? Yes. You never interfered with or tampered with the plates. To me this means the rules are there to primarily stop rebirthing (ie stolen car made legitimate) and fraud (GT Falcon owners primarily are the most precious locals about this). Repairing a car you own with parts was probably never the main intention of any of these rules.

And this quote is spot on too:

You may get away with for now but in the future, if you sell your vehicle as genuine it might just come back and bite you and remove a large wad of cash from your bank balance. Check out the unique cars magazine article from a few months back.

It all comes down to how you advertise and sell the vehicle if you choose to sell it. That court case was civil, not criminal.

[ozbox]

Twotees is spot on regarding removal of ADR plate and putting on another body being not lawful in NSW.

regardless of what may be stated in the rules...if an auvis examiner contacts the technical section of the rta and they instruct him to have the adr matching tag to chassis attached back on the body of the new vehicle do you argue the point?....its obvious by this that these morons do not know the rules....
now just to throw something back in the air....i cant sell a body shell with tags that is removed from a chassis but i can sell a rusty as pg13 one attached to a chassis and also do the same with a unibodied car..i can do this as a dealer quite legally..
this is a discussion that will never be won regardless of all the legal paperwork thrown out for all to see because people will do what they want and if they keep there mouths shut no one will ever know...simple as that.