Sandman ute or not?

[seavan]

If the guards and doors have been replaced is it possible to romove the side screw in panels in the rear and identify this? If so what what would it look like if it had side strips on from factory? Has anyone got a picture of this it would be great to see what it looks like. How do you tell with the consul in a hj ? Is there a distinct difference? A pic between the two would be handy as well for the novice like myself trying to learn all this stuff between the models.

Seavan

[mauser]

The front console mount should look like this.
Consolemounts1.jpg

Not like this one as it is mid-HX to HZ with the cutouts
ConsolebracketHZfront.jpg

The rears HJ-Z looked like this
ConsolebracketHZrear.jpg

On side strips. They were attached with little nipples spot welded along the side. Sometimes you can see evidence on them on the inside as heat marks even if they were grinded off. I think the other tell-tale signes are the screw holes where they were attached at the end in the door jamb and at the tailgate. Unfortunatly I dont have pictures of these yet and I probably should get around to that. :-)

Mauser

[Valencia]

Sorry to steal thread but do all 77 hz sandmans have that mount at the front for the console cant remember if mine has one at all and yes it is a genuine 77 hz sandman
cheers gene.

[HK1837]

All HJ-HZ HAVE to have that front console mount, and Mauser is right, the HJ ones look a bit different to HX-WB. There is another telltale other than the console mount as this can be added, but that is a little secret to help discover forgeries!

[Seavan, not meaning anything other than to encourage the right terminology, "model" is for example "Kingwood ute" or Premier Wagon. "Series" is HQ, HJ, HX or HZ. Note that Sandman isn't a model especially in HQ and HJ, it is a special vehicle package like Vacationer. HX and HZ are intentionally meant to be seen as a separate model like HQ GTS 4 sedan even though the ID plates say it is a Kingswood, whereas HQ and HJ still carry Belmont, HOLDEN and Kingswood badging.]

[seavan]

OK,
I will try and get my head around the correct terminology!
The one thing I cant comprehend is (and I hope I get this right),If I was looking at a HJ and I thought it was a sandman because of seating cap etc but it was still borderline on being a kingswood but it has a gts dash bucket seats etc, wouldnt a kingswood have the same console mount as the sandman if they had exactly the same interior? Or would you have to lift the console out to check for the bracket on the transmission hump? Sorry if this is a dumb question to some but Im sure there are others out there that would like to know as well.

Seavan

[HK1837]

You couldn't get console shift in a HJ Kingswood ute, unless it was a Sandman. Kingswood with buckets without the Sandman pack was 3spd column (M15), trimatic column (M40) or 4spd floor shift (M20). M15 or M40 got a seat separator, M20 got you buckets and (i'm not sure how they dealt with the bit between seats, 2 seat 4spd original non-Sandman commercials are basically non existant anymore). If XX7 (later XU3) was added to Kingswood you could only have console shift (T-bar trimatic or 4spd). If 308 was optioned then it was only column shift TH400 or floor shift M21; Sandman added console shift (TH400 or M21).

[seavan]

Thanks very much for that,now I understand!
Thats what makes this such a great Forum,info like that. Sorry if I high jacked the thread.

Seavan

[Taily]

.....There is another telltale other than the console mount as this can be added....

I can think of two or three areas that might be a "tell". Don't want to hint here. When we speak next I'll ask you about them.

Dave.

[Nocturne]

On side strips. They were attached with little nipples spot welded along the side. Sometimes you can see evidence on them on the inside as heat marks even if they were grinded off. I think the other tell-tale signes are the screw holes where they were attached at the end in the door jamb and at the tailgate. Unfortunatly I dont have pictures of these yet and I probably should get around to that. :-)

Mauser

here's a couple of pics of the pins to hold the trim clips; the screw holes are at the front of the guards, the rear outside the tail lights and front and rear of the door

pin2.jpg

pin1.jpg

[jacko]

my HJ ute has everything we have talked about. If it has the rear console mount could this mean that it is a sandman? Still trying to confirm this. Thanks everyone for the input it has been very helpful.
Jacko