Could you option power windows on a sandman?

[Innuendo]

Hi Guys.

I thought that I'd throw in my 2 cents on this one.

How often do you hear that a car has a very rare option & was assured that it came from the factory like this ? I've heard it so often that many so-called factory options have reached mythical proportions.

I've worked in the industry for 43 years, 30 of those sub-contracting for new Holden dealers, so I've been involved in this first hand.

Many of these 'options' can be classified into 5 groups.

1. GM-H regular factory-fitted options.
2. GM-H non-regular factory fitted options.
3. GM-H custom or prototype fittings.
4. Dealer-fitted genuine accessories.
5. Non-genuine accessories (dealer-fitted or otherwise).

1. Very easy to define. A normally available option as listed on dealer order forms & will also have a genuine 'PO' number. It will also appear on the production broadcast sheet.

2. A little rare, but examples would be an HQ 350 Premier or a WB 5 litre Panel Van. In other words a regular production line item, but not available to a regular customer on that particular model. I know many of these cars were built, but again not available to the retail buyer.

3. Very rare. An example of these would be special builds like the a car for the Managing Director, Sales Manager, styling dept. or whatever. Many of these cars are taken off the production line partly built & have any extra fittings (not available to you & I) fitted by hand by tradesman, not on the production line. Examples would include John Bagshaws HQ (Premier) SS or Leo Pruneau's HJ LE Coupe prototype.

4. Often confused with factory-fitted options. Many parts can fall into either this group or group 1, especially back in the 60s & 70s. Items such as car radios, heaters & even power steering can be either fitted at the factory or at the dealership using identical genuine parts. FE/FC blinkers also fall into this group. So can several items mentioned in the above posts. The thing is that some items can only be factory-fitted, e.g. engines & transmissions, but many items can be added by the dealer. I own an HZ B06 One-Tonner with 308/TH400 etc. which I purchased new from Suttons Holden in 1977 & it has many dealer-fitted items which appear to be factory-fitted. Several of these, the GTS steering wheel, the Caprice bonnet emblem, front wheel-arch mouldings, stainless window frame mouldings & extra stainless mouldings on the door window-sills & B-pillars are straight out of the spare parts dept. & fitted in the dealers service dept. None of these items were ever listed as 'factory' options. The Premier-style sill mouldings (also mentioned above) were very cleverly fitted. As mentioned the rear edge looks factory the way it is finished off. Well of course it is, it is cut at the front edge, not the rear & the cut is nicely hidden where it butts up against the front wheel-arch mouldings. The formed end which normally sits at the rear wheel arch, now sits at the rear of the One-Tonner cab. It really does look factory-fitted !! GTS guards & Statesman grilles were not factory options either. Unless the car was a prototype or custom build, these items are dealer-fitted.

5. This group has no end to it. Items like sunroofs, non-genuine sound systems & air conditioning, body kits, etc. sit here, but the salient point is that they are not genuine options of any type. They are simply aftermarket items, regardless of whether the selling dealer fitted them or not.

Some fittings fall into very 'grey' areas. Items such as those offered by HDT or HSV for example. It now gets even more grey when you consider that some 'factory' options are actually fitted by HSV under contract, LPG & towing packages are examples of this.

Another very common example are the so-called 'optional' LH/LX Torana flared guards. Even Holden did not fit these. When the L34 & A9X were made. the cars were taken off the production line partially finished, trucked to Bill Paterson Holden, where the necessary body mods were carried out & the flares fitted. They were then trucked back to Dandenong to be finished off. Yet you hear so often that a guy has a regular SL/R with flares that were supposedly factory-optioned from new. It never happened, even if they wanted to. Most of the time, if a buyer requested flares, the dealer would procure the parts thru their spare parts dept. & have the local panel shop fit them & simply add the price to the invoice. Most have just been fitted post sale.

So my point is, even the original purchaser, with his sales receipt in hand as proof, doesn't really know which of his 'options' were factory-fitted or dealer-fitted.

Power windows were not offered on any ute or panel van until the 50th Anniversary VS ute, even though the available 2-door switches had been used by Holden since the VN Commodore. I'm sure if GM-H had built a fully optioned ute concept or show car, back in the 70s, they could have sourced the US 2-door switch & fitted power windows, but it could not have happened on the production line, for it to become a regular production item.

Dr Terry

Jeez mate you should write a book!
Smooth

[Big Rob]

Dr Terry, has put into very well written words what I was trying to say.

The problem with most options were that if a customer ordered a certain "option" it didn't matter to them who fitted it, just that the car was supplied to them with those things fitted.
Then if they were rare, and the car passed through a few subsequent owners, the "options" on the car appeared factory fitted.

I've seen so many in my life that were claimed to be factory that in the end you just have to believe them.

I reckon that if a person ordered a car with certain things on it and a Holden dealer supplied the car with those items fitted from new, then that means a car could be claimed as "Factory optioned" with those parts. Even if it was a "one off".

[ABSINTH74HQ]

It's still a common thing, I owned a VQ SV90 CAPRICE now they were never made! The customer approached the dealer wanting the CAPRICE not the STATESMAN as a base for his HSV, the dealer simply fitted all the parts at the time of PD, anbd had whatever mods done to the engine for the 200KW upgrade... bingo! SV90 Caprice. It still hasn't got the HSV build tags etc even though the dealer receipt said something along the lines of HSV SV90 Package on it.
Another example is the leather trim in all the Hilux's that work buys, the dealer has it done before we receive the car, because Toyota don't do leather trim in a hilux.

The fact is this sort of practice is still not uncommon today, but with time and numerous owners, the facts get blurred, and the truth is lost for a better story!

[Dr Terry]

Yes, the trim thing was always being played with. I remember doing some work at a Toyota dealer in the mid 80s, when a customer ordered a car in a certain interior trim colour, which wasn't immediately available. They had a car in stock which had all the requested options & other bits, but the interior was a light beige & the buyer wanted darker tan. Their solution was to get that car & another which had the wrong combo, but had the required interior trim & swap interiors. Pretty easy job, when both cars were the same model & brand new.

This could lead to dramas in future years when attempting to replacing interior parts using the body ID plate info.

Dr Terry

[Taily]

I've seen something similar during my apprentiship at Tony Packards at Castle Hill. A customer wanted a Calais Turbo wagon, so they built one out of a turbo wagon, complete with the different front, dash and steering wheel, alloy wheels, paint outs, badgework, and interior. I cannot remember how they got around the rear seat design/trim issue but like the rest of the vehicle would have had to be custom done.

I guess it would have been interesting later on to sell it as a Calais (8VX) model number where the compliance plate would have been 8VL.

Funny you should mention Suttons Chullora Rob, that is where my grandparents bought their ute( much to the chagrin of a certain couple of other family members), had it pulled down and changed to suit their needs to travel around the country with (they bought a slide-on camper at the same time in 1975).

When was your friend there?

[Big Rob]

I've seen something similar during my apprentiship at Tony Packards at Castle Hill. A customer wanted a Calais Turbo wagon, so they built one out of a turbo wagon, complete with the different front, dash and steering wheel, alloy wheels, paint outs, badgework, and interior. I cannot remember how they got around the rear seat design/trim issue but like the rest of the vehicle would have had to be custom done.

I guess it would have been interesting later on to sell it as a Calais (8VX) model number where the compliance plate would have been 8VL.

Funny you should mention Suttons Chullora Rob, that is where my grandparents bought their ute( much to the chagrin of a certain couple of other family members), had it pulled down and changed to suit their needs to travel around the country with (they bought a slide-on camper at the same time in 1975).

When was your friend there?

He was there for sure then.

He was with Suttons when I met him (1969/70...) and I think he left sometime in the early '80's.

He used to turn up at my place in all sorts of "demonstrators" to have a beer with my Dad after work at least a couple of times a week. I'd come home and there'd be a GTS, or SL/R 5000, or Sandman!!!!!! in the driveway. You can imagine how much fun I had sitting in them and wishing I was old enough to drive them.

Then when I WAS old enough, I got to have more than a bit of fun and wear out some tyres 'round in the industrial area nearby!

I reckon almost all my mates got a car from him in our 1st couple of years of driving, Vans, Toranas, Monaros, etc....

They were great times.