Could this be a HZ Sandman?

[Wombat7051]

Hi Absinth
Is the car in original paint?
In my opinion the paint on the car is too good in spots to be original.
Can you find evidence of black paint around upper tailgate window, on beaver panel, along bottom sills or around door frames?
As i am currently working on the HQ van I have put the HZ away and havnet done anything except take some stripper to the side of the dash
Any evidence of decals on back of doors or guards?
See above
What spare wheel winch bracket is fitted?
When I bought the van I had no idea there was a difference in the spare wheel holders so I didn’t look and haven’t since. I am at work at the moment so will look when i get back home.
Are door handles, windscreen wipers or windscreen stainless mouldings painted black or evidence they once were?
window wipers are black, all trim gone from around window.
Is the carpet original, possibly never removed.... Might be a production broadcast sheet under it???
As I said the interior was painted and diffrent carpert was also added the handbrake however is brown under the black.

my HX Sandman was totally changed, HZ instruments and fascia, Premier steering wheel, dash and door trims changed and repainted black even though it has 18V trim code. All GTS bits removed but original seats and console left. HZ SL/E front grill. Blue 253 fitted with trimatic auto.... Plates say L32 M20. Gas installation removed spare wheel which and cross member. If it hadn't been for the 18V code I would have totally overlooked it even though it had full headlining and courtesy lights.

So what you are saying is that if it doesn’t have 18v it is not a sandman.

At the start of this thread I put up all the tag details, got told good chance of it being a sandman but need to check "x,y,z", check "x,y,z" and it has them, great buy it and put it aside to complete correctly back to original.

Now being told that just because it has tags correct, engine chassis correct, tell tales like footwell lights (wire in the original harness, not spliced in), full headlining correct, one side of the dash being the glove box has been replaced, (the lower dash side is original brown), it is not a sandman. Short of me having a picture or being there when it rolled off the line or left the dealer what "more evidence" do I need to have to say it may be a sandman?

As you have said all the indicators on yours, (except linning and lights) were gone and you are sure it is a sandman. Some are there on mine, some are gone however you aren’t too confidant with mine being a sandman.

As you say your HX was totally changed, as a car of 30 odd years would be, but it is still a sandman. Short of there being a XX7 or xu3 on the plate what hope have I got, or anyone for that matter of proving mine to be a sandman? You took a chance because you saw the 18v the rest of the car was wrong. I took a chance on the tags, read as much as I could from the posts here, researched it the best I could, and took a chance.

[HK1837]

This is the photo that is on fleabay at the moment, I havent bought it yet as I was waiting on conformation on the placard and colour (63V)
Attachment 9792
Here is a photo of one of the repos on the net, (rare spares is the same). note the 3 rows of data and the ZN but same 92001123 number
Attachment 9793

Top one is what I'd expect to see on an XU3. I don't know what the bottom one is doing with those other tyres on it, the 195SR14 are the base textile radial tyre for a 6cyl commercial. 185SR14 are not available on a ute or van. Jason (Stickthis) may be able to elaborate.

[Wombat7051]

Thanks Byron Do you think that colour looks right (63V)?

[Absinth]

Top one is what I'd expect to see on an XU3. I don't know what the bottom one is doing with those other tyres on it, the 195SR14 are the base textile radial tyre for a 6cyl commercial. 185SR14 are not available on a ute or van. Jason (Stickthis) may be able to elaborate.

bottom one is a Rare Spares repro.... They can't research what they are having for dinner let alone what belong to what model!!!!!

their HJ one is totally different to my original HJ one.... Theirs is in MPH and mine is in KPH.... Same part number though.

So what you are saying is that if it doesn’t have 18v it is not a sandman.

NO..... What I am saying is if it didn't have an 18v trim code I would have overlooked it as being a Sandman because almost nothing on the van was original. Just because it had a full headlining and courtesy lights, 2 seater and derated gvm doesn't mean it was a Sandman and does not prove it was. If I am going to spend $30,000 plus restoring a car I want as much proof it is Sandman as I can get. 18V trim code is unique to Sandman on a 8WM HX and HZ so it was the absolute proof that it was a Sandman.

in all likelihood your van is probably a Sandman but nothing you have given so far proves that it is one. I am just trying to help you find proof as others on here are doing.

The colour on the EBay lid looks correct.

[Innuendo]

Do you think that colour looks right (63V)?

63V is common to all commercials it is not exclusive like 18V to Sandman.
See http://www.mysandman.com.au/forums/s...man-Trim-Codes
For trim colours.

[Innuendo]

Now being told that just because it has tags correct, engine chassis correct, tell tales like footwell lights (wire in the original harness, not spliced in), full headlining correct, one side of the dash being the glove box has been replaced, (the lower dash side is original brown), it is not a sandman. Short of me having a picture or being there when it rolled off the line or left the dealer what "more evidence" do I need to have to say

I'm not trying to rain on your parade and nor is anybody else. It's just so far there is not enough to say 100% it is a Sandman. Having production photos, sales receipts, broadcast sheet nails it! but so far no good. It is vitally important you find factory black paint on the rear beaver, lower quarters, sill panels, upper tailgate around the glass, door frames and all the typical black out areas. Photograph it to prove it. Any remaining evidence of side or tailgate stripes. (Look for return edges inside doors) and again photograph it to prove it. As it has already been pointed out it is a pretty basic optioned Van. Pointers are it a "could be" Sandman but that is still a long way from being 100% confirmed. This is how it has always read right from the beginning of this thread. Your excitement has got you a little carried away wanting to believe it is.

We all hope your right and that it is. Now do the hunting for evidence, show us and get conformation.

[Wombat7051]

Thanks Absinth

That is the trouble with email/posts you cant get tone accross like when you are speaking face to face.

I appreciate what you are saying about the money I will be spending, (dont tell the wife), therefore I too want the best evidence that it is a sandman.

Your knowledge in the area is fantastic and somthing I want to use this when restoring my van, after your gear knob posts you sound like you favour correctness like me.

I too want genuine, however as you have pointed out unless it is a Brisbane build with xx7 or xu3, a 8wm hx-hz with 18v, to absolutly prove it is a sandman, it is at best a guess and a hope.

I put it like this, like the 100 point system at the bank.

xx7/ xu3 on plate - 100 points = 100% sandman
8wm hx-hz with 18v - 100 points = 100% sandman

Now the hard part, I think permenant stuff rather than bolt on gets higher points, and each of these items make up a percentage.

Bucket seats - Seat capacity of “2” on the ADR Plate. - 10 points
Console Floorshift / mount points.- ?
Derated GVM - 10 points
Front Door Armrest.
V8 High Compression 253. (matching number) - 10 points
Manual transmission - 4 speed floorshift. - ?
Bucket Seats. - ?
GTS Steering Wheel (3mm thick spokes) with GM Lion insert. - ?
GTS Instruments Cluster Assembly. - ?
GTS Rally Wheels (N66)/ (N67) Cast alloy early 1979. - ?
GTS Colour Coded Door Mirrors.- ?
Quartz Halogen Headlights.- ?
Footwell Lights. - 10 points
Trim codes of 11C, 18V, 23C, 23V, 33C, 45V, 60V, 63C, 63V, 67V or 77C.(on plate) - 10 points
Sandman Decals Set - ?
Full head linning -10 points

All above - 100 points = 100% sandman (is that the case?)

(Mine has 11 of the 16 indicators)

So it is all a numbers game and a gamble, I guess it is just how much of gamble you are willing to take.

[Innuendo]

Thanks for that, I take it that the 9942827 is the early HZ xu3 and the 92001123 is the later HZ xu3.

As Byron pointed out the HZ was never released with a 6cyl so the Tyre placard had to have changed from HX. But in no way do I agree that the Statesman placard would ever have been used.
Personally I feel all HZ XU3 would have had 92001123.

Jason (StickThis) does the reproductions and quick search bought a page of his listing his knowledge on tyre placards.
http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/HQ...rd_Information
Contact him and see if he has any idea on the early HZ XU3.

[Wombat7051]

I totally agree with what you are saying innuendo about it not being 100%.
The point I am trying to make is that unless you have the docs, 18v, or xx7/xu3, it is always going to be a "could be". All you can do is like you say try and find the indicators that help add to the evidence.
The trouble is , and this has been said in other threads, everything else is a bolt on/ bolt off. If when I start the full restoration I find under six layers of paint there are blackouts it still doesnt prove, like you said, that it is. This may have been done on layer six and there is layer seven and eight under that.
The strips could have been placed after or not optioned by the buyer, from what I have read they were put on by the dealer and towards the end a lot of people didnt want them.

Believe me the excitment has not got me carried away. I am in no way claiming that this is a genuine sandman xu3, I am mearly trying to do like you and absinth have said and gather what i can to add to the positive side of the scales.

The thing is that even if it has all the indicators, all of the things that go into making a sandman, even then, without dealers papers or documentation stating that it was, xx7/xu3 or 18v, it and every other sandman out there without solid proof, will only be "could be's".

[Absinth]

There are a lot more indicators if you know what you are looking for... Sienna is another unique Sandman trim. Later HZ xx7 has a 2000kg gvm, also unique to Sandman.

Rodney and Jennie's HZ van was painted Absinth yellow, had black trim and a 308 auto in it. It is a Jasmine Yellow van with Tan trim and L32 M20 on the tags, early HZ so 1950kg gvm. We did some digging around the sills, doors etc and found black paint in those areas.... Further digging showed Jasmine yellow paint under the black so we were down to the original paint with blackouts painted over it... Rod took photos of this as proof it is a Sandman.

no point system really works, it is a matter of going over the car with a fine tooth comb and getting as much evidence of a Sandman as possible and documenting that evidence. Unfortunately in your case, the different coloured quad headlight front and different coloured glovebox lid with Statesman placard hinders more than helps.