Keep Holden

[SLR_dave]

The only thing that annoys me is people repeating GM propaganda like "perfect storm ". They coined a catchy phrase to hide the reality of the reason they pulled out. It's too expensive to build a car here.

Agriculture has huge potential if it just got some support.

Now... ummm, agriculture gets lots and lots of support, lots and lots! But the point of this thread was not to start an industry by industry war, once, we could sustain them all. What has changed? The answer is, quite simply, nothing. Nothing except that we have a heap more money now.

Here are some catchy phrases; "cost base economy"; (Q: what is a cost base economy? A: well... its what we are moving too. Q: Why? A: Becuase we have to, its the budget, the deficit, a surplus, things must change. Q: But isnt it a fact that Australia only reached surplus once since 1945, and we still had these industries? A: You dont know what you're talking about, everyone agrees there must be a cost based economy. Q: What is a cost based economy?)

"Economic crisis"; (Q: how is there an economic crisis when Australia is currently the richest it has ever been, and in fact, is not just that, but is also amongst the richest societies that have ever exsisted since civilisation was first imagined - that is, ever in the history of the world? A; Becuase our industries are failing. Q: Why are our industries failing? A: because the government is not going to support industries which either fail, or (may) fail. Q: Why? A: Becuase that is the basis of what we are moving to - a cost based economy.)

OK, so my frustrations with bullcrapping or lilly livered politicians (or both - from wherever they place their hats) aside;

In my opinion the term 'Perfect Storm" was not GM propoganda, it was a fairly polite collequialism which avoided jingoism, but which also set out the idea that there was more than one factor in the decision. "The perfect storm" wa described by GM as being a combination of; the high $AUD, free trade agreements; cheaper wages in neighbouring overseas economies; the large selction of cars on the market from a large number of manufacturers; and, a very small population base. GM went on to state that this all added up to creating a business case which "just did not stack up".

Toyota gave pretty much the same reasons, and added that the very recent fair trade agrements made it worse.

It is worth considering that that large corporations like GM and Toyota are not generally rude to governments, they cant afford to be, their bottom line is profits, and they need government cooperation.

I am sorry to directly contradict you WB, however, and politely, I will do so here.

I feel that I have a need to dispell this ongoing silly idea that it's "too expensive to buid a car here".

If it is, then how come there are so many on the road all around us? Just look at your local carpark. How was this achieved? The truth is that it is 'too expensive' to build a car ANYWHERE. It is actually cheaper to build a car in Australia than in Germany for instance, and the cars are getting close to being as good.

The "cost based economy" is about breaking the unions, its about lowering the wages of workers in the traditionally blue collar sectors. This is why the government won't actually explain what it is!! And it just destroyed an entire industry. People have reason to be upset, and worried, and ripped off. I note the government hasn't launched a Royal Commission into whether a Federal MP really deserves 400k per annum, or whether the country might be better off if corporations limited the remuneration to their CEO's and allowed the workers to share the gains. And this is where the money is really going, for the meantime, it just cost us our manufacturing industry.

So, if another war turns up, and we cant quickly build a engine, or a troop vehicle or a tank, or even a stove, furnace or washing machine, without buying the components overseas and training and entirely unskilled workforce.....let alone rebuild an outdated stock of US aircraft to defend ourselves (as we did in WW2 in the pacific) becuase we have no skilled manufacturing workers we can say hey - "dont invade us - we've got free trade and a cost based economy". I'm sure it will go down a treat.

This is why other countries subsidise their car industries so heavily.

Anyway, scuse the rant, but really, the way that many Australians are prepared to just shrug their shoulder amazes me. We can and DO build cars in Australia and I reckon we would be in a a far better situation if it could stay that way. This is reversabile, atm, nothing is set in stone, not yet, they are still all still currently building cars here right now, and will be on Monday. A 25 percent tarriff on all cars without 50 percent local manufacturing would make GM/Toyota/Ford re-think, - it might even get other manufacturers interested. Becuase they keep manufacturing here they would then have a sales advantage for those models, otherwise, they'd have to compete with the entire sector.

[SLR_dave]

On a side note: That collective hex that many Australian Holden owners must have sent to GM must have worked: Sink hole opens up under the National Corvette Museum

Wow! Ooops! This really deserves it's own thread, theres bound to be updates.
(btw I agree with the rest of your post as well, Taily).

[SLR_dave]

It would not let me find your Facebook page

I have checked the facebook page, it should be working, but you need to be a member of facebook, maybe I should have chosen a different social media website?
But, as the first post in the thread acknowleges, now that Toyotas gone, I dunno that this would be enough now. Still worth a try, it's there, who knows what will happen.

[wbute]

Ah what exactly is all the support Agriculture receives?

The reason there "used" to be so many Australian built cars was because of market protection. You had little choice on what you bought. I don't say that was a bad thing though. Once removed we are now over run with brands.

Perfect storm is a American public opinion winning bit of rubbish just the same as other examples like WHAMO from the Vietnam war. Read a couple of books written by Australian journalists on how the Americans released information to the media and the catch phrases they used to try and make it look like they were doing well. The process has not changed for America.

We need industry in Australia, but not government subsidised industry owned by other countries. That's the bottom line.

[sjc315]

Heard a timely ABC fact check this morning, Australia is in the bottom 3% of countries that receive agricultural subsidies, beaten only by NZ and the Ukraine. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-1...sidies/5252596

[wbute]

Those subsidies would include the funding of the dept of Ag and drought assistance. Maybe diesel road tax rebate.

[sjc315]

Adds up to bugger all for your day to day running. Properties here are anywhere from 1600 to 2000 an acre, so buy 1000 acres then stock it or buy plant and equipment, work 7 days a week and on a 10 year average make $100,000 a year for a several million dollar investment. You do it with your heart, not your head.

[SLR_dave]

OK, "lots and lots" was an overstatement from myself and exagerated. Fair enough that you question that WB.

I did not intend to suggest that agriculture gets enough subsidy already, or that farmers have it easy.
I do think it would be desireable to have more government investment in agriculture.

My uncle manages a fairly decently sized fruit farm in mid southern QLD, he is one of the hardest working and capable people I know, and yet, he certainly has his difficult years, yes indeed.

It particularly furrows my brow when stuff happens like overseas multinationals buy our canneries and then cite globalisation and economic rationalisation to move them offshore so the produce they sell is no longer local. Hienz buying Golden Circle and moving the beetroot cannery to NZ comes to mind.

But there is some subsidy, and some of this probably also goes to foriegn owned companies who hold leases on Australian properties and stations;
The farm finance loans (ok they are loans), Tax incentives for primary producers (ok not much, but a bit), Various fuel rebates, Drought assistance packages (again not enough but they are there, one is being considered now), Grants for agricultural greenhouse gas reduction trials, The Landcare program.

And theres a few others for various agricultural innovations available, I suppose it depends which agricultural industry one is involved in.
http://grantslink.gov.au/grants/gran...nk-search=true

I think it is important and desirable to provide agriculture with the support it gets, and more. Its just, I dont believe we, as a nation, can't afford these and car industry subsides as well.

I agree with you about the market restrictions WB, completely, (I called them tarrifs). I enjoy reading your posts, I find them interesting and informative. I am personally a bit touchy about this losing the Australian Automotive industry thing.

I disagreed with your point because I really dont want Australians to give up on this yet.

Greg Combet was talking on the ABC the other day in his new role as the manufacturing industry restructuring adviser (or whatever title they have given him). His comments on tarrif changes and free trade agreements back up what you said about import restrictions. Richard Marles, was also on, and said that the governments of countries choose whether or not to have a motor manufacturing industry and the Australian Government made a choice. However, remaining bi-partisan, in my opinion, the previous government also has to accept that their policies contributed to a situation which allowed that choice to be there by removing the tarriffs in the first place, as I noted earier in this thread.

I believe it is still possible to reverse the situation to some extent, but, it would take a change in government policy, and re-introduction of the tarrifs. Now that Toyota has decided to close I dont believe that a public fund to try and keep Holden manufacturing here will be nearly enough on its own. However, I will keep the facebook page I created open to see what (if anything) happens.

In the meanime keep on trucking (and farming)!

[Flamenco_not_Flamingo]

Hey guys,

Just wondered how many people know about this attempt, I am sure there are plenty that do but for others, of company hybriding between GMH and Mazda?

Can't understand why it just didn't work?

An attempt at exporting which well, failed I guess but our desire was there!

Would it be a collectable?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Roadpacer_AP

[gregbark]

You can check out this page which shows the relationship between Germany, Korea & Australia with a similar looking Commodore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Rekord_Series_E.

It is also worth reading this link which shows the Australian car industry started to decline many years ago with the button Plan. The recent closure announcements have been know in the automotive industry for the last few years and came as no surprise. It was the general public who were not aware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_plan