How are LED lights going to fix the issue, they still need power to run?
How are LED lights going to fix the issue, they still need power to run?
Roger that, i always intended to modify my van project so i chose a WB base. I used to own a HJ Jamaican Lime Sandman so i understand the concept of originality. If i fully sealed the tail light body, moved to LED for low current draw and low heat, i should be able to mitigate any risk.Originally Posted by Innuendo
There would be no ignition/spark danger from tail-light globes. I think the main concern would be the motorised (wiper motor powered) operation of the fuel door itself. 12V DC motors cam emit some very dangerous sparks if petrol vapour is present.
Dr Terry
Two words. Ford Pinto
History lesson.
In the 70's Ford built a compact car called the Pinto.
After a few fatalities, it was discoved that if hit from behind while an indicator was on, the vehicle would explode.
This was due to the blinker being adjacent the fuel tank. Fire plus fuel vapor etc.
The problem was that Ford did the "numbers" (Edward Norton in fight club style) and chose to pay out damages as opposed to fixing the problem.
They effectively put a price on people lives.
End History lesson
I the pinto tank problem was more from its location. In a rear in accident the tank was pushed into the diff. This punctured it and the filler neck also snapped off.
The yanks won't register a bike with a plastic fuel tank either.
I just wouldn't take the chance with fuel vapour personally.
The Ford Pinto problem was more than just fuel tank location, the car was a disaster looking for a place to happen.
I read that one of the other issues was an assembly line problem. Many owners complained of constant fuel smells. They were traced to the fact that many cars had the carpet on the rear cargo floor secured by staples, many of which actually pierced the top of the fuel tank. Some cars were so bad that the carpet itself was constantly fuel-soaked.
Dr Terry
This is all good stuff, glad i put it up now. My panel shop (Road Star) will custom sheet metal behind the RHS light so it becomes a dished in section of the body. This should essentially make the fill point an external part of the body rather than being open to the internal body inspection void. This should provide good separation from a wiper motor if its mounted in the void, however i am now thinking about the gas strut idea mentioned above. Innuendo, can you expand on the HG one you did? Hmm, or maybe a hydraulically actuated arm.......
It was not dissimilar to what this wagon shows. Only the gas strut was down low and had a bracket that allowed the taillight to tilt down about 30°. Not a whole different to how a bonnet strut works only a lot smaller. You would be probably better to use an actuated arm as apposed to the wiper motor or gas strut as the actuated arm should have a two way push pull action with selectable limits.
I'm with the fuel vapour issue as per Chrisp, wbute and Innuendo on this one.
(I note the comments about the Ford Pinto, - I think the iconic book there came from Ralph Nadar - 'unsafe at any speed'? Anyway, he was the dude that exposed that Ford (US) made the calculation on recall and repair of the Pinto versus likely damages from litigation due to deaths, and Ford chose the latter, as it seemed to look cheaper. Ford didn't fare so well after it all came out... U.S. Supreme Court from memory.)
By the way, this thread mentions the Pinto but it forgets the venerable old Mini. The Mini sedans had an odd fuel filler cap , it stuck out from the body about 4 inches, in a roll over accident, it had a tendency to shear, the fuel could flow out, right into the brake light area, if the tail lamps or indicator were on.... and it did happen, all occupants burned. Ford Pinto city. (Not a joke and none intended).
Practically, however, I would offer this;
Whilst I believe that it may, I say may, be possible, given sound engineering design, to do such a thing safely...., hmmn maybe... you still have to convince the person operating any petrol pump at any station you fill up at to confidently turn on the gas without calling you in for a yarn. Which is a fraction boring if it happens all the time!!
Given that for instance, a BP service station near me wont let me fill up even if I'm wearing a beanie, and they know me! Company policy I'm told, I have to approach the window, take my beanie off, throw it in the car and then fill up, - in winter in Canberra!
And this summer, at the same servo, I watched an attendant slow down a line of about four cars in 38C plus because one dude was wearing a cap and didn't get why the pump wouldn't start... yeah everyone just waiting for fuel, to pay the money, and get outa there all pissed off with one dude in the heat because he got annoyed he had to take his cap off. Fair enough, I think it was ridiculous and (like others there, had a little growl at the service station operator), however, it didn't change their policy, petrol filling safety requirements are likely to become more stringent in the future, too, I cant change that don't blame me !!! But, considering that;
Why are they being so vigilant?
Well a mobile phone is enough to start an explosion at a petrol station, this has been seen fairly recently in Sydney (a Caltex I think), you dont have to see the spark, the petrol vapour finds it! Same with lead acid batteries, mobile phones are proven ignition sources for explosion.
So a 12v 15A source, ie petrol into an H series brake light housing.. Hmmn, I'd want very good engineering if it was my car, bearing also that the cap will get old, and may vent in hot weather at any time!
And whilst I agree, a 12v DC motor/servo is probably worse than an (off) or even an (on) lamp due to the arc at the brushes - and there's also the possibility of someone touching the switch whilst you are filling - regardless of that - fuel vapour can hang around for a bit - it may still there with a lamp that's burning, or may be about to be when the driver gets in and switches on the headlamps, and operates brake or indicator. Fuel vapour ignites really well, really easily, and it might not the first, second, third or tenth time, but the awh I dunno 133rd? I wouldn't wanna be the passenger.
Sorta cool, sorta, but I just dont see the point. Especially if the fuel station filler refuses to switch on the pump for you half the time.
It doesn't take much to ignite fuel vapour - that's what keeps us all motoring after all!
Torana had em behind the number plate, maybe that's one reason why they fail Torana on a craked rear number plate light lens? OK probably not, ... they fail Toranas all the time.. lol.
I dunno, I don't usually can stuff outright, but geese, with all respect, and politely, I really don't see the point in this one.
Last edited by SLR_dave; 24-02-2014 at 08:32 AM.
But following the idea, if you did go LPG, then you could pretty easy have a fold out rear bumper maybe?
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