WB fuel problems

[xale]

G'day. I have a 1981 WB 253 4 speed.

I was coming back from a trip the other day, and was running low on fuel. The store I thought I could get fuel from didn't have any, and I got home by vapours.

Anyway, I don't think I'd ever run ithat low. After a few days I went to go get some more fuel and it wouldn't start. After messing about, I realised there was no fuel getting to the first fuel filter, which is the one before the fuel pump. I pulled the fuel line off the filter, and blew into into it, back towards the fuel tank. Fuel started running for a minute, then stopped again.

I'm thinking that there is gunk in the bottom of the tank? or would it be in the fuel line? I can't get under it, so I'm just wondering if there's anyting I can do without getting it towed to the mechanic.

Any advice appreciated. Also, this ute was sitting in a shed for 9 years before I rescued it a couple of years ago - it's been a labour of love! cheers.

[Vombil]

i had similar dramas

load her up with fuel and take the fuel line off before it enters the carby. crank motor and if it sprays fuel you know its not likely the fuel pump. I'd then switch car off and pull accel cable to see if you get a nice even and strong spray of fuel into the carby each time you pull cable. change the filters for the hell of it even though this is not likely the problem. when you get it going revv the shit out of it for a while to help clear lines/carby etc. if daring you could try revving it up and then choking carby with hand and rag. this may helps clear carby if its blocked? anyways there are much more knowledgeable fellas on the site that will no doubt get you back on the road! good luck and welcome to the site

[SLR_dave]

I was coming back from a trip the other day, and was running low on fuel. The store I thought I could get fuel from didn't have any, and I got home by vapours.

I'm thinking that there is gunk in the bottom of the tank? or would it be in the fuel line? I can't get under it, so I'm just wondering if there's anyting I can do without getting it towed to the mechanic.

Hi xale,
I think you've pretty much answered your own question here.

What happens is of course is as you have suggested. The car is more than 30 years old, it is very likely to have all sorts of sludge in the bottom of the tank. The fuel pick up from the tank on these vehicles is attached to an arm on a float that sends the signal to the fuel gauge. This means it draws from close to the top of the fuel level of the tank. When you run it close to empty, the fuel is now being picked up from the bottom of the tank. Grains of grot/dirt/sludge tend to get sucked up and into the fuel system. This material (depending what is is) can block up just about anything in the line. Quite frequently an issue will be dirt blocking a jet in the carburetor, but that wouldn't usually stop it starting - its possible of course. (Dirt in the jets will usually make it run poorly and be really difficult to drive, but -usually -it keeps going in some form).

If its not starting, and you aren't getting fuel at the "first" filter (how many filters have you got on it btw?) and you got some fuel back after blowing into it, it sounds more like the line between the tank and the filter. A block can form in this line just about anywhere I spose, but where the rubber hose goes around the corner coming out of the tank, as well as the joins and other bends are suspect areas. Its also possible a really sludgy tank could block the mesh on the fuel pick up in the tank. Its also possible that the vent pipes at the separator could get blocked and maybe slow the flow rate... but I'd leave those till last.

A useful thing to know when you get this sort of problem, is that its easy to actually create a carburetor jet block as a secondary problem when working on fuel lines. This is because whenever you separate and re install an old piece of rubber hose from the line it may have granulation's of rubber that break off on re-installation, these then flow up the line - often straight into the carby. If this happens you can introduce a new problem because they are a great size for blocking a carby jet.

So it can often save a later headache to replace hoses you take off with good new hose (not the Chinese stuff, it perishes in a few years) or at least make sure the end of the hose is cleanly cut, and not be overly casual when refitting it.

Blowing with your mouth may not be enough to clear a fuel line block. You may need to blow the line back with compressed air (take the fuel cap off first), not too high a pressure, be prepared for fuel to rush back out the line when you take the compressor off it (and all over you if you are at the join under the car) - (lol).

All that said, Vombils advice is sound. Once you think the line is clear, start with a full tank, (or at least 3/4 full if you can). With the tank that full it should flow fairly freely on its own to gravity before the fuel filter in front of the fuel pump with the car on level ground (check the hose position at the motor of course, needs to be about chassis level, and might need some suction to start it). If it doesn't, you have have a problem backward toward the tank from there. (Btw, I'd be getting it to a stage that I felt it was blown out and clear at the joins under the car before filling it - 1/2 a litre of petrol on the torso is a good thing to avoid!!)

You may need to have a good look at the hoses that come out of the tank to get the line clear first. Why is it you cant you get under the car? (I'm just thinking if there's some issue with the way its parked, you might be lucky, could be half your problem?)

Dropping the tank to do a full system flush is a pain in the butt, usually you wouldn't bother, just keep the tank above 1/4 full after fixing the prob, but in some cases you may have to have a good go over everything.

Best of luck. Btw, if you do end up with your shirt soaked in petrol don't put it in the wash! You'll end up with petrol spread though your machine and subsequent wash load(s). Just hang it on the line in the hot sun for a couple of days, till the hydrocarbon evaporates and you cant smell it anymore. Then wash it.

[Taily]

What happens is of course is as you have suggested. The car is more than 30 years old, it is very likely to have all sorts of sludge in the bottom of the tank. The fuel pick up from the tank on these vehicles is attached to an arm on a float that sends the signal to the fuel gauge. This means it draws from close to the top of the fuel level of the tank. When you run it close to empty, the fuel is now being picked up from the bottom of the tank. Grains of grot/dirt/sludge tend to get sucked up and into the fuel system.

Ah, no. Sorry Dave, that bit is totally wrong. I do like and second the rest of your advice though! The fuel is always picked up from the bottom of the tank by a RIGID line with a sock on the end of it. There is no hose or pick-up point attached to the sender unit float (the float is purely for the fuel level sensing unit only). Whoever told you that the fuel was picked-up at the float was having a big lend of you.

Refer pic:



I would also exercise care when blowing a fuel line backwards. 1 - you might actually blow the blocked sock off the end of the fuel line, and 2 - if the tank vents are not quite clear, the pressure you just put into the fuel system with now push fuel back all over your face etc...

Start with the basics xale, cleaning from the tank forwards to ensure a previously cleaned part isn't blocked again.

Some (not all and I have no idea why I've only ever seen a few of them with it) of the ute/panel van tanks had a 7/8 drain plug in them from the factory, hopefully yours is one of these and you'll be able to drain the tank easily. Suggest doing this and getting rid of the crap fuel. The other option if your does not have the drain plug is jack the car (remember, high enough enough to actually get the tank out from under the car and please use stands!), drop the tank straps/fuel sender/fill and vent loop hoses (be very careful with the three-holed rubber grommet on the inside of the rear guard as they are almost impossible to get and a fair dinkum rego inspection will cause you to fail it if it isn't in situ) and drop the tank completely out of the car. You'll need a few containers and/or a decent deep tray to drop the fuel into. Flush it out, check for internal condition (use an LED torch here just in case you drop it into the tank while you're checking it over), check the condition of the fuel pickup/sock gauze (a lot of them have by now dropped off and are rolling around in the tank - it is better to have them fitted than left off), the vent and supply hoses and most importantly the filler hose and clamps - a good idea to source new ones now and replace the old ones as they will be perished from age, my HJ ute started leaking on me between Alice Springs and Erldunda one day and I wondered why it took me almost a full tank to get that 200km until I stopped and scoped it out. A dark country road (or in my case the outback) is not the place to have these issues raise their heads....

So replace what is neccessary or even looks sus and refit the tank to the car. That little job should take around 4 hours by yourself if you're not too quick with the tools, if you're handy or have good help it will take less of course. While you have the tank out, remove the fuel line from the fuel pump and (using compressed air) blow the fuel line forwards. If you have a filter fitted before the pump then remove it and blow it out to that point. Replace the filter and hoses as they could be part of the overall problem.

Fuel pump diaphragms do from time to time perish and the bits will either end-up getting stuck in the pump valves or being pushed-up into the carby. If you think it looks sus then change it. This means changing the whole pump these days as they are not a serviceable item like the originals.

Carby. The carby itself is something I wouldn't recommend you play with yourself unless you've had someone show you what you need to do as they have many little passages and fine metering adjustments that can make life hell if you don't get them just right. You mention that it is a WB - so should have a Quadrajet fitted? If it does, there should be a very small metal gauze filter in the inlet pipe union at the front of the carby - many mechanics/owners removed this gauze as they thought it would block up. Truth is that yes it did block up if there was rubbish getting through the fuel system, but the trade off is that if it is removed then the fuel bowl in the carby will be drawn back over night meaning that the car will be hard to start if left for a few days/weeks/months as the surface tension the gauze imparted on the fuel line stopped this drain back from occurring. If you can track down a carby kit, a can of carby cleaner and a couple of parts washing metal bowls, you're feeling confident and can swing a screwdriver with the best of them then there are many carby tutorials/information about with a decent google search. Things to watch are getting the needle and seat installed properly, making sure you set the float level correctly, make sure the accellerator pump plunger is correctly fitted and working and that all screws are nipped firm and not over tight. If your car has factory airconditioning there will be a small diameter return line to the tank. This rarely causes issues but you'll need to ensure this is clean.

There is no better way of learning your car inside and out than pulling it apart bit by bit and putting it back together yourself. You'll need to take your time, but you'll have the satisfaction of doing it yourself and save yourself some serious dollars. The flipside of this is that a carby is a specialised bit of gear to repair and if yours needs extra work (such as a distorted top plate on a quaddy or throttle bushes) it really should be done by a carby specialist as they will get it right.

Dave.

[SLR_dave]

Ah, no. Sorry Dave, that bit is totally wrong. I do like and second the rest of your advice though! The fuel is always picked up from the bottom of the tank by a RIGID line with a sock on the end of it. There is no hose or pick-up point attached to the sender unit float (the float is purely for the fuel level sensing unit only). Whoever told you that the fuel was picked-up at the float was having a big lend of you.

Thank you Taily, I concur completely. I am incorrect on this.

Oops! I musta started getting a bit over confident with my general knowledge. Its at least two decades since I had one of these apart, I remembered it wrong, I should have checked! No excuses, my poor advice. My apologies xale, and to all. Still, I get to use this emoticon now... ....(Embarrassed)

Some (not all and I have no idea why I've only ever seen a few of them with it) of the ute/panel van tanks had a 7/8 drain plug in them from the factory, hopefully yours is one of these and you'll be able to drain the tank easily. Suggest doing this and getting rid of the crap fuel. The other option if your does not have the drain plug is jack the car (remember, high enough enough to actually get the tank out from under the car and please use stands!), drop the tank straps/fuel sender/fill and vent loop hoses (be very careful with the three-holed rubber grommet on the inside of the rear guard as they are almost impossible to get and a fair dinkum rego inspection will cause you to fail it if it isn't in situ) and drop the tank completely out of the car. You'll need a few containers and/or a decent deep tray to drop the fuel into. Flush it out, check for internal condition (use an LED torch here just in case you drop it into the tank while you're checking it over), check the condition of the fuel pickup/sock gauze (a lot of them have by now dropped off and are rolling around in the tank - it is better to have them fitted than left off), the vent and supply hoses and most importantly the filler hose and clamps - a good idea to source new ones now and replace the old ones as they will be perished from age, my HJ ute started leaking on me between Alice Springs and Erldunda one day and I wondered why it took me almost a full tank to get that 200km until I stopped and scoped it out. A dark country road (or in my case the outback) is not the place to have these issues raise their heads....

Totally agreed. It is really true about factory hoses becoming suddenly unreliable after about 25 years, my HJ wagon main fuel rubber hose from the tank just gave up without warning on my way back from interstate one evening, fortunately passengers in a car next to me pointed it out to me as I was at the lights, (petrol leaking onto the road) it was only 40 mins drive from when I had been parked for two days, with no reason to suspect it. I pulled over, luckily there was an auto shop, ten mins to closing time, and then it bucketed down rain - got it fixed, cost me five bucks, but it would have been so much worse if I had been on the highway and run out (which would have happened around an hour and a half later I reckon).

Completely agree that LED is the standard now.

Dropping the tank is such a dang of a job, maybe there is a chemical answer these days? - I wonder.

Fuel pump diaphragms do from time to time perish and the bits will either end-up getting stuck in the pump valves or being pushed-up into the carby. If you think it looks sus then change it. This means changing the whole pump these days as they are not a serviceable item like the originals.

I went to find an HX fuel pump around a year ago, I just walked into local (reputable) auto parts shop, got told there's now only generic item all holdens to VP- the price, ridiculous, however, fortunately, this was not accurate advice.

Both the earlier glass bowl fuel pumps with serviceable parts are still available from fuel miser, and I think rare spares (etc) but, you cant get the diaphragm parts for them anyway, so its replace the whole thing again if it goes next time anyway. The next series of fuel pumps (the flatter ones with the metal plate on top ) are also still avail from similar outlets. Much cheaper than the generic all Holdens to VP ones, although still more than they used to be. If you need a fuel pump, its worth googling for a bit - definitely could save half the price from an auto shop.

Cheers again Taily for picking up my mistake!

[Taily]

I went to find an HX fuel pump around a year ago, I just walked into local (reputable) auto parts shop, got told there's now only generic item all holdens to VP- the price, ridiculous, however, fortunately, this was not accurate advice.

Both the earlier glass bowl fuel pumps with serviceable parts are still available from fuel miser, and I think rare spares (etc) but, you cant get the diaphragm parts for them anyway, so its replace the whole thing again if it goes next time anyway. The next series of fuel pumps (the flatter ones with the metal plate on top ) are also still avail from similar outlets. Much cheaper than the generic all Holdens to VP ones, although still more than they used to be. If you need a fuel pump, its worth googling for a bit - definitely could save half the price from an auto shop.

Mistakes, embarrassed nah don't be. Information is always a two way street. I wasn't aware that Fuel Miser were actually still doing the V8 pumps!

I was going to put a filter before my fuel pump hidden somewhere and my mechanic said not to put one before the pump.

Did your mechanic happen to give you a reason why not? It wont hurt anything and there is no truth to the Old Wive's Tale that it will either make the pump work harder or cause other issues. That is as long as you don't go fitting some huge EFI type metal body filter to it, just a small(er) reputable brand type either glass or plastic filter to suit the hose size. If you were looking to protect the carby better though, one after the pump will also pick up any debris the pump might chug into the system if it starts deteriorating, though in my opinion if you have to cut a steel line after the pump to fit it then it then 1. - you're always going to see it, even if you don't want to (read: if you're looking for that "original finish" engine bay), and 2. may cause issues with engine bay heat soak after shut down boiling the fuel away out of the lines, making it hard to start after a few minutes (in Oz we call this vapour lock, not sure what term you folks use over there for it).

Dave.

[wbute]

The filter is meant to be before the pump. It stops crap getting in the pump valves. Do not put it after the pump. They are not pressure rated.

[Vombil]

The filter is meant to be before the pump. It stops crap getting in the pump valves. Do not put it after the pump. They are not pressure rated.

ive often seen them after the pump. in fact i fit one to a 253 after the pump... probably went some way to explain why i was having trouble with a fuel leak at the filter connection!!!!!

[wbute]

Before filter from factory. There was a filter holder on WB. Not sure about WB's poor cousins HQ to HZ.

[JDT]

I went to find an HX fuel pump around a year ago, I just walked into local (reputable) auto parts shop, got told there's now only generic item all holdens to VP- the price, ridiculous, however, fortunately, this was not accurate advice.

Both the earlier glass bowl fuel pumps with serviceable parts are still available from fuel miser, and I think rare spares (etc) but, you cant get the diaphragm parts for them anyway, so its replace the whole thing again if it goes next time anyway. The next series of fuel pumps (the flatter ones with the metal plate on top ) are also still avail from similar outlets. Much cheaper than the generic all Holdens to VP ones, although still more than they used to be. If you need a fuel pump, its worth googling for a bit - definitely could save half the price from an auto shop.

I searched for 18 months for a kit for an original AC Delco V8 fuel pump. I tried every auto store in every town I went only to be told the same thing. No longer available. I had almost given up trying. I still refused to put one of those awful Chinese fully sealed units under the bonnet of my van. I was asking at a local shop again when one of the other blokes at the counter overheard me. He said he was sure he still had one in his shed. He told me he sold his HZ in 1996 and would never use it. I gave him my number and be f$#ked he rang me the next day and said he had found it.