Fraudulent paperwork anyone?

[SLR_dave]

Anyone on to Holden about this ebay seller yet? Anyone have a contact at Holden? Feel free to message me if so, I'm happy to make the call to convince GMH it's in their interest to have a look at this.

[wbute]

Why would it matter to Holden? They have no interest in a car they built 30 years ago. Copying a logo or brand and reselling might be a different problem. Or if another company had the rights to reproduce them it would be an issue.
If you use this type of document as proof to pay for an expensive restored car then the adage, a fool and their money are soon parted becomes correct.

[Flamenco_not_Flamingo]

Why would it matter to Holden? They have no interest in a car they built 30 years ago. Copying a logo or brand and reselling might be a different problem. Or if another company had the rights to reproduce them it would be an issue.
If you use this type of document as proof to pay for an expensive restored car then the adage, a fool and their money are soon parted becomes correct.

Tend to agree with you mate.

Get the feeling if you contact the company about this you would be placed in the "cranks" pile lol, just my opinion.

[Innuendo]

There is nothing wrong with selling or offering this type of paperwork. It is what is done with it that matters.
ebay/the Internet is covered in reproduction and original paperwork for sale and personally I believe this is a good thing.
A lot of the information we talk about here or have a personal knowledge comes from such items. It enriches our lives and maintains a history.
Holden legal would laugh at you or at least dismiss any such caller.

Also remember nobody likes a dibber dobber!

[stickthis]

I have a new old stock 11/79 one. Along with the VB owners manual to go with it. I did wonder about putting it up for sale on ebay.... not sure if I want to now...

[Flamenco_not_Flamingo]

I have a new old stock 11/79 one. Along with the VB owners manual to go with it. I did wonder about putting it up for sale on ebay.... not sure if I want to now...

I'm sure you'll be right mate,lol, don't think gmh is going to come knocking your door down with a SWAT team.

[wbute]

There were brand new WB owners manuals for sale at swap meets 7 or 8 years ago. Along with Force 7V ones which was interesting considering they never really made it to production.
This stuff has been around for years. No guarantees that all is original that you see anyway.

[HK1837]

I have about a dozen of those Force7 books somewhere!

[SLR_dave]

There is nothing wrong with selling or offering this type of paperwork. It is what is done with it that matters.
ebay/the Internet is covered in reproduction and original paperwork for sale and personally I believe this is a good thing.
A lot of the information we talk about here or have a personal knowledge comes from such items. It enriches our lives and maintains a history.
Holden legal would laugh at you or at least dismiss any such caller.

Also remember nobody likes a dibber dobber!

Disagree. The suggestion that you present; "its whats done with it that matters" is an old one Innuendo, it is (for instance) very similar to; "guns dont kill people, people kill people" (the reason its the same is becuase you are saying it's the end user that breaks the law, not the provider of the ability to easily use the thing they provide). Or "its not the ciggerette companies to blame, everyone has a choice not to smoke".

Now, regardless of what people think on those issues for instance (and I'm sure in some minds the guns thing will be a testy one, just hear me out for a second). Would a person think it's desireable/ok for Australian dealers to sell guns in an unlicenced fashion ? OK, if one does, how about to foreign powers? How about to foreign powers Australia has isolated military activity in, such as The Solomon Islands? OK, if thats ok, then would one extend that to the ability for General Dynamics to sell F-16s to ISIS? Well of course not, so some things are illegal to sell or buy.

1. The potential this sort of forgery has to devalue many genuine cars will disturb many owners of classic vehicles (Holden or not) world wide. I can not see why a person would think it is a good thing if they own genuine classic original vehicles.

2. Perhaps I dont understand your statement that "a lot of the information we talk about here or have a personal knowledge comes from such items" ? None of mine does. If I had seen anything on this site that caused me to think it did I would have questioned it, in my opinion, information derived in such a fashion would reduce, rather than "maintain" a history.

3. The day Holden Legal laughs at me will be the day I pay them to bake my hat into an edible cake which I will consume in front of them. I do not see that day coming soon if at all.

4. And of course, I am sure that the comment about "dibber dobbers" does not refer to me.

However, of course, I point out that this would seem a spectacularly naive thing to say, as, some very important moments in the creation of a safe, fair go, egalitarian, nation building community in Australia have relied on whistleblowers. (As has been the case for engineering safety generally for over a century and a half). Notably (for a site such as this) we could look at road and transport infrastucture to confirm this, and do so even at the slightest of glances. Would you really think that this nation would prefer that truck drivers can not "dibber dob" when they are made to drive 19 hours plus three days straight? I think that actually in Australia, (unless they are the one being "dobbed" on), in most instances, the vast majority of those concerned like a whistle blower, and in terms of road transport, it keeps our children safe.

Just giving you the drum.


In terms of other comments on this thread which respond to mine, I politely remind respondants, that falsification of documents is illegal in Australia. There would seem (from the point of veiw of any court in Australia) no point in paying out money to purchase such blank documents from ebay unless one had the intention to use them, or could prove otherwise. At it's most simple, its called fraud. The onus would be on the purchaser to prove they had no intention to commit fraud. I really have not really given this any drawn out thought, (mostly responding to the "dibber dobber" thing here) but it seems to me, it is probably as illegal to buy them as it is to sell them.

I can look the fines up if you like.

[bogan]

Disagree. The suggestion that you present; "its whats done with it that matters" is an old one Innuendo, it is (for instance) very similar to; "guns dont kill people, people kill people" (the reason its the same is becuase you are saying it's the end user that breaks the law, not the provider of the ability to easily use the thing they provide). Or "its not the ciggerette companies to blame, everyone has a choice not to smoke".

Now, regardless of what people think on those issues for instance (and I'm sure in some minds the guns thing will be a testy one, just hear me out for a second). Would a person think it's desireable/ok for Australian dealers to sell guns in an unlicenced fashion ? OK, if one does, how about to foreign powers? How about to foreign powers Australia has isolated military activity in, such as The Solomon Islands? OK, if thats ok, then would one extend that to the ability for General Dynamics to sell F-16s to ISIS? Well of course not, so some things are illegal to sell or buy.

1. The potential this sort of forgery has to devalue many genuine cars will disturb many owners of classic vehicles (Holden or not) world wide. I can not see why a person would think it is a good thing if they own genuine classic original vehicles.

2. Perhaps I dont understand your statement that "a lot of the information we talk about here or have a personal knowledge comes from such items" ? None of mine does. If I had seen anything on this site that caused me to think it did I would have questioned it, in my opinion, information derived in such a fashion would reduce, rather than "maintain" a history.

3. The day Holden Legal laughs at me will be the day I pay them to bake my hat into an edible cake which I will consume in front of them. I do not see that day coming soon if at all.

4. And of course, I am sure that the comment about "dibber dobbers" does not refer to me.

However, of course, I point out that this would seem a spectacularly naive thing to say, as, some very important moments in the creation of a safe, fair go, egalitarian, nation building community in Australia have relied on whistleblowers. (As has been the case for engineering safety generally for over a century and a half). Notably (for a site such as this) we could look at road and transport infrastucture to confirm this, and do so even at the slightest of glances. Would you really think that this nation would prefer that truck drivers can not "dibber dob" when they are made to drive 19 hours plus three days straight? I think that actually in Australia, (unless they are the one being "dobbed" on), in most instances, the vast majority of those concerned like a whistle blower, and in terms of road transport, it keeps our children safe.

Just giving you the drum.


In terms of other comments on this thread which respond to mine, I politely remind respondants, that falsification of documents is illegal in Australia. There would seem (from the point of veiw of any court in Australia) no point in paying out money to purchase such blank documents from ebay unless one had the intention to use them, or could prove otherwise. At it's most simple, its called fraud. The onus would be on the purchaser to prove they had no intention to commit fraud. I really have not really given this any drawn out thought, (mostly responding to the "dibber dobber" thing here) but it seems to me, it is probably as illegal to buy them as it is to sell them.

I can look the fines up if you like.

Wot? No crissy presents?