this is Crook

[Vombil]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251935087...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

you can't for 1 second tell me that a 'collector' is going to pay $1800 (current bid) for some HQ coupe ID tags....

this is why the feds don't want peeps to sell tags. There's no doubt these will end up on a car


"Holden HQ Monaro Coupe GTS ID Tags

Auction is for all 3 tags.

These are from a wreck and are for non-car display purposes only. Not to be attached to any vehicle.

Great for man cave / shed, suitable for car museum or just to own your own piece of Holden history.

Have not cleaned plates, will be sold as is.

Preferred payment is bank deposit.

Payment on pick up is also available

Winning bidder to contact seller with postage details within three days of auction end."

[SLR_dave]

I absolutely agree with you Vombil. I see this as sort of thing as having the potential to de-value genuine collectable Holdens, although others may disagree. I have posted previously that I read a while back there are apparantly more registered Ford phase III HOs than were ever built by the factory!

Perhaps it could be interesting to have an onsite discussion as to whether it might be a good idea to begin a register of id plates that members see for sale on ebay (or wherever) so that potential buyers of vehicles could one day look to see if the plates are known to be from a car that was destroyed or rebirthed?

However in this instance, its an HQ coupe so the plates can only be used on a coupe anyway. I think its probably a lot of work to turn a four door into a coupe! I spose its do-able... (lol)... cant see how it could be cost effective though, even if one did have a spare coupe to cut up, why not just restore that one (etc).

However, I make those numbers as Body No : 322769-S. Vin : 8Q37TDH822(BLANK) HQ COUPE 7/74 EHQ - 28876S.

[mr.jones]

PSN and the Body No. are the same, so the VIN is 8Q37TDH822769Q, old mate is not as clever as he makes out

These tags have been up for sale before and included a firewall cut with the body stamp and he still claimed they were for a collector.

When I record these I put a note in my comments with "Tags only" I haven't found any that have come back to life 'yet'

Perhaps start a section similar to the GMH Torana Dodgy Tag thread

[HK1837]

I agree it is obvious what the seller's intention is, but why bother worrying about it? It is only a V8 GTS. and if I was a buyer of this as a modified street car I wouldn't give a rats if it was the original body shell or not. If it was a full on original resto and paying accordingly you'd go digging to check such stuff out, but as say a nice HQ street car with 350 and TH400 in non-original colour it wouldn't matter - it might as well be an original 173 3spd drum brake HQ Monaro body and tags or GTS tags on another GTS body.

[SLR_dave]

PSN and the Body No. are the same, so the VIN is 8Q37TDH822769Q, old mate is not as clever as he makes out

These tags have been up for sale before and included a firewall cut with the body stamp and he still claimed they were for a collector.

When I record these I put a note in my comments with "Tags only" I haven't found any that have come back to life 'yet'

Perhaps start a section similar to the GMH Torana Dodgy Tag thread

Seems to me you raise an interesting side point there Mr Jones. I think its great work that you (and others) keep notes and records, its vital, and helps us all. But if a person who had kept notes did at some stage learn that a set of reused tags had come back to life, and it seemed the owner of the car had bought it genuinely, thinking it was the real deal, would the person with the knowledge tell them? um... could they? and... should they?
I would imagine online listings of known dodgey tags, would make such considerations (if they ever come up) a bit easier. Any sense of responsibility or public duty, that may potentially concern the mind of an knowing individual, could be considerably negated, as the info would be publically available.

I didnt realise the GMH Torana site had a Dodgey Tag Thread, sounds like thats the sort of thing I was thinking. I just tried to see if I could find it easy, couldnt see it after about ten mins, but I'm not a member on that site. Are they only listing dodge tags for Torries?

I think it seems like a reasonable thing for potential new owners of a classic car to be able to access online, and to have on this site if its easy enough to do. Its a nice service. Wonder what others think.

(Trying the multiple quote post see if this works)

I agree it is obvious what the seller's intention is, but why bother worrying about it? It is only a V8 GTS. and if I was a buyer of this as a modified street car I wouldn't give a rats if it was the original body shell or not. If it was a full on original resto and paying accordingly you'd go digging to check such stuff out, but as say a nice HQ street car with 350 and TH400 in non-original colour it wouldn't matter - it might as well be an original 173 3spd drum brake HQ Monaro body and tags or GTS tags on another GTS body.

I understand what you're saying Byron, and in this instance I think the tags would be hard to use, but then again, what to a well seasoned performance car enthusiast/aficionado/expert is only a V8 GTS, could be the dream and aspiration an unsuspecting 20 something year old is about to make into their first money pit! I can't see these particular tags getting used like that, but, others could be. I wonder if it is much bother, seems to me it would be a quick and easy database to start. It's not as if it has to be complete or anything, just a note on those known. Revs (for instance) dont suggest they have a complete list on encumbereds, just those they know of.

Incidently, I recognise and recall that there were those that agreed, and those that disagreed with my opinion over the dealer certificate thread a few months back (incidently, I didn't take that any further as I suggested I might, because, there seemed to be members who felt it wasn't helpful to anyone) so on consideration I just left that. Dealer certificates with limited use are different, in my mind, to full sets of tags being sold though.

[Sandaro]

I agree it is obvious what the seller's intention is, but why bother worrying about it? It is only a V8 GTS. and if I was a buyer of this as a modified street car I wouldn't give a rats if it was the original body shell or not. If it was a full on original resto and paying accordingly you'd go digging to check such stuff out, but as say a nice HQ street car with 350 and TH400 in non-original colour it wouldn't matter - it might as well be an original 173 3spd drum brake HQ Monaro body and tags or GTS tags on another GTS body.

Presumably someone could illegally misuse the plates by putting them on a Monaro coupe that was a base model and passing it off as a factory GTS 308 (adding about 15,000-20000 in value to finished product IMHO) or putting them on a coupe that presently has no tags at all (and reaping even better return).

[HK1837]

They could, but again it is always buyer beware in all these cases and given it is a Pagewood set of tags unless you had the right Pagewood firewall number (yes they are predicatable) it'd always be easily picked as a rebody - again buyer needs to do their homework. I'm not saying being fraudulent is OK - it isn't. It is however far better to do your research properly and avoid the issue altogether - people get too caught up with $ signs in their eyes. However in the end a really nice street car with say a BBC, custom paint and interior it wouldn't matter to a buyer if it was a Monaro or a GTS, so to them the tags and their relationship to the body are irrelevant or at least far less relevant than to many others. I still don't think a person should be drawn and quartered for obtaining tags to put on a good shell they've found, and building up a car - good on them. As long as none of it is stolen property and they don't set out to commit fraud what does it matter? If someone in the future is fraudulent with the car it isn't the guy who built the car's fault. I know all this stuff is all tied up in legal cr@p today and solely bought about by (once again) $$$$ and paranoia, but in the past like the 80's and 90's people did this stuff all the time, if a car had a rusty body you turfed it and bought a replacement shell, there was a reasonable market for rust free shells especially utes, tonners and coupes. I had a near rust free 308 4spd HQ coupe in the 90's - I stripped it and sold off any saleable bits and the rolling shell went to QLD to be used to rebody a GTS350 that had been in a big rear end accident - this was normal and acceptable practice and it didn't matter a damn. The 308 GTS's tags would still be out there somewhere as it was wearing them when it left, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being re-used again. I think it was Orchid with black trim but don't remember for certain.

[SKI_Pilot]

They could, but again it is always buyer beware in all these cases and given it is a Pagewood set of tags unless you had the right Pagewood firewall number (yes they are predicatable) it'd always be easily picked as a rebody - again buyer needs to do their homework. I'm not saying being fraudulent is OK - it isn't. It is however far better to do your research properly and avoid the issue altogether - people get too caught up with $ signs in their eyes. However in the end a really nice street car with say a BBC, custom paint and interior it wouldn't matter to a buyer if it was a Monaro or a GTS, so to them the tags and their relationship to the body are irrelevant or at least far less relevant than to many others. I still don't think a person should be drawn and quartered for obtaining tags to put on a good shell they've found, and building up a car - good on them. As long as none of it is stolen property and they don't set out to commit fraud what does it matter? If someone in the future is fraudulent with the car it isn't the guy who built the car's fault. I know all this stuff is all tied up in legal cr@p today and solely bought about by (once again) $$$$ and paranoia, but in the past like the 80's and 90's people did this stuff all the time, if a car had a rusty body you turfed it and bought a replacement shell, there was a reasonable market for rust free shells especially utes, tonners and coupes. I had a near rust free 308 4spd HQ coupe in the 90's - I stripped it and sold off any saleable bits and the rolling shell went to QLD to be used to rebody a GTS350 that had been in a big rear end accident - this was normal and acceptable practice and it didn't matter a damn. The 308 GTS's tags would still be out there somewhere as it was wearing them when it left, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being re-used again. I think it was Orchid with black trim but don't remember for certain.

Thanks HK1837 for your quote it saved me a lot of typing. A debate on the id of a vehicle has been going on for a long time. So many if buts and maybes, eg. removing tags for a full restoration or a full restoration using another shell. Having a chassis, and body but renewing everything else, replacing and engine with number that are close to the original and the list would go on. Its does seem morally wrong to over state the vehicle but it has always been buyer beware. As I see it the main reason that all this is an issue is the price that people will pay for what has become a rare item and that the manufacture ( Holden )did not keep satisfactory records. Even if they had done a little better keeping the purchase info that they would have had for warranty claims or an engine number that matched the rest of the id plates.

[HK1837]

Just to be clear i'm not advocating that people should attach tags to bodies to suddenly make money or to deceive people. I'm only saying it isn't a big deal if you are building yourself up a modified car and want some tags to put on it that suits how you want it eg a green one or a V8 one or an auto one or a bucket seat one etc. Even to make sure the rails being used matches the tags (ie replace the tags off a donor body with the originals off a damaged or rusty shell), however this only works for HQ-WB. If a person wants to be certain the original body and tags are together then that is their right, but it isn't the person who is building the car's responsibility to worry about future owners - all they have to do is make sure when they sell it or advertise it they are honest about it.

[Sandman_sozza]

Wat if some poor bugger has there car stolen & rebirtd wif these id tags ? Should b illegal to sell such a item & rms should no these numberz & dis allow re rego so sum poor bugger (buggers) dont get stung.