Counterfeit Sandmans

[wbute]

Cant see how a reshell makes a fake sandman. This has been talked about 100 times. The tags and chassis are the identity. The body is valuable for originality. The only way you could actually fake a Sandman is if you could dodgy up the ID plate information by for example changing a HX 8WN80 18V into a HX 8WM80 18V. That would then be a fake. However you would need to be a genius at forging to get away with tampering with the ID plates.
Body swaps are not fakes, just no-longer in original condition.

[HK1837]

100% agree^^. As long as the body used is correct. Like you couldn't use a HX or HZ body for a HJ. BUT this really only applies for these as the chassis with number is removable. Different story for those with chassis numbers on the body.

[Blocker]

What's the difference between the HJ HX and HZ bodies other than some firewall details from HJ to HX/Z?

[HK1837]

Lots, and also plant dependant. Too much to explain. You are better off using the right body from the correct plant. They also different when things changed during a series eg HZ early bodies are very different to late ones.

[ozbox]

ive got pictures of a very badly done correct hx sandman...correct as in tags..chassis number matches tags but it is a really bad restamp and its running a wb chassis and body

--- Updated ---

There are 2 candidates on ebay currently that are destined to be fakes. The rusty white (Atlantis blue) HZ (Listing now removed by ebay??)and the XX7 HX Van (now a ute). I rang the guy with the HZ and he said with certainty that that shell can not be repaired. He is a panel beater. If those numbers turn up in the future then it will be a fake. If the HX turns up in the future as a van you can bet the farm it is a fake unless it comes with a well documented repair diary turning it back to a van by replacing the turret etc.

If they ever turn up as a re-shell and the authority finds out they will not be eligible for registration.

you obviously learnt nothing from that 27 or how ever many page thread that you were so wrong in...
you sir are a danger to what is correct and legal with your misinformed knowledge...
why would the vehicle not be able to be registered??
looking so forward to your reply???

[mauser]

Ohhh god… I feel a sense of dread wash over me but at the same time I’m compelled to answer. Gun shy I suppose after the gang up on the Chassis thread.

I feel like ..


Im Alice, this is your wonderland!
Come on everybody my roller coaster is almost leavin'
oooh whoohoo...
And we could take a ride through the night to my magic kingdom
oooh whoohoo...
Your own castle in sky, where it feels like you just died and went to heaven
oooh whoohoo...
And theres milion reasons why you choose to say behind, but just forget 'emmm
oooh whoohoo...
Follow the leader, into the rabbit hole, im gonna lead ya into another world, where the lights don't matter, stars all gather


Ok then, lets start with the shades of grey…. We will use a HZ as an example because a HQ is way tooooo easy.

Case 1.
Some pissed off bikies come out of the pub and see a Sandman Panel Van in 1980, decide they will recreate a scene from Mad Max and jump and hack at the roof and sides of the body until spent… The car is rolled into the panel beaters by an anxious Insurance accessor. GMH provides a replacement shell which has no defining features like Kingy tabs welded on the body but importantly never had alternative tags attached. Fred, the panel beater, grabs his angle grinder hacks off the console mounts, the strips along the inside back sides to hold the pinch weld at the top, and the toothed headlining strip at the back and rebuilds the car from scratch. Lucky for the owner, Fred is really handy with a welder and the whole shebang looks like it rolled out of a plant. He faithfully re-attaches the tags and orders factory stickers.. all good. Every component other than the body shell is 100% original even the grill and headlight surrounds.

Case 2.
Jim really wants a Sandman Panel Van. He has been lurking on mySandman for a year and is keen on a project. He sees the add for the aforementioned white HZ Sandman that was Atlantis Blue. He buys the rust-bucket for way more than he should of and follows the advice given to him on this forum. He goes in search of a HZ Panel van from roughly the same time ie body number has a A to indicate it’s a HZ in 77 built at the same plant as he has been told to. He finds either a Kingy or Holden van and in whichever case either has to hack the above features off the old body or grind the tabs off the sides. He finishes his project and rolls into the inaugural mySandman Nationals. Blocker hands him the Byron Rich Concours trophy and a signed copy of the “History of Sandman” book. Later at the bar, Jim is getting loose and mentions to Agro that if it wasn’t for the information he received here he would never of attempted the project in the first place… an appeal is forthcoming.

Case 3.
Take the previous situation and Jim can’t find a HZ shell to match. He uses a late HX one out by a couple of months but hay it came with RTS and the sway bar mounts on the chassis so it’s ok isn’t it?

Case 4.
Harry also reads our forums. He just decides in good faith to follow our advice as well. He gets a HJ shell and faithfully rebuilds it. Unfortunately for him he doesn’t do a very good job. The stick welder he uses leaves splatters and dags all over the shell. He just uses tech screws to re-attach the plates. He hacks pieces of the firewall out like the engine plug mount and welds up the rat-trap clutch holes. While he is in the line waiting for the Rego inspection, the Engineer comments to him about the plate’s attachment. He replies “Yeah mate, I used another body I found”. The Engineer grabs the biggest screwdriver he can find and shoves it under the plates and pops them off. Harry is left with a pile of parts and decides to instigate a civil action against mySandman for bad advice.

Case 5.
Lastly there is Manuel .. He picks up a beautiful replica shell that is faithfully restored but is a Kingswood. He decides to send away to trimtags.com, who won’t reproduce the long VIN tag but will print him new ones for the other two. He gets the trim codes, gmv and might as well upgrade it to a L31/M41 while he is at it. He hasn’t changed the vin/chassis numbers but just upgraded the options. Lists it on ebay and makes a handy profit.

Which case is ok????

They all deceive in some form or another whether it be intentionally or un-intentionally if you keep in mind the court case recently involving the XY GT rebodyed using the Police Special shell, you may be liable.

Where I’m at with this is, us as a community are actively encouraging illegal activity every time we suggest or encourage fellow Sandman enthusiasts to re-shell a rusty heap off ebay. We know it happens but actively supporting it is different matter entirely. What are we doing here!!! Telling someone how to re-body and it's ok if you do it our way you wont get cought.

How would you feel if you brought a matching number resto (which its hard to pull apart while inspecting it to buy to examine say the console mount welds) and eventually took the side panels off the back and seen the tab spot weld marks from the side strips inside???


Mauser

(hiding under the table awaiting the flames) haha

[HK1837]

I think the key words are "won't get caught". Those who rebody a car are as you say effectively breaking the law as you are removing the ADR plate, but how do you repair some cars otherwise? You are breaking the same law by removing the ADR tag to fix rust! Other illegal things happen every day too like lowering a car, running extractors, rebuilding an engine to anything other than standard. It only becomes fraud if you try to hide something. You just have to be honest in how you advertise it for sale (if you sell it) and don't tell any lies, so either advertise it as a van or ute (don't mention Sandman) or be honest it has been rebodied. Then you have no issues with the recent Victorian court case precendent. The problems happen when you misrepresnt a car when you sell it. If you don't sell it there are no legal issues at all. And there is no reason why that white van couldn't be reshelled and win Concours. If done right with the right shell no-one would ever know. It'd be better to see it with a new body than botched up trying to repair rust.

[green taxi]

however if you cut throug the windscreen pillars and through the floor and attach anew rear shell ( whith correct attachments) it is still a sandman or a reashell

[mauser]

I think the key words are "won't get caught". Those who rebody a car are as you say effectively breaking the law as you are removing the ADR plate, but how do you repair some cars otherwise? You are breaking the same law by removing the ADR tag to fix rust! Other illegal things happen every day too like lowering a car, running extractors, rebuilding an engine to anything other than standard. It only becomes fraud if you try to hide something. You just have to be honest in how you advertise it for sale (if you sell it) and don't tell any lies, so either advertise it as a van or ute (don't mention Sandman) or be honest it has been rebodied. Then you have no issues with the recent Victorian court case precendent. The problems happen when you misrepresnt a car when you sell it. If you don't sell it there are no legal issues at all. And there is no reason why that white van couldn't be reshelled and win Concours. If done right with the right shell no-one would ever know. It'd be better to see it with a new body than botched up trying to repair rust.

Personally I'm with you Byron, I like to see them saved but I only have an issue with the site as a whole condoning illigal activity. Ozbox, as a registered motor trader, may have a better idea than me but I think it is something like if you document with photos and inform the motor registry prior to removing the tags for repairing a cowl. They will send an inspector to check the tags and as long as you told them and they go back on the same body then its ok.

If someone else knows the rules please inform everyone. :-)

Mauser

PS What do the Monaro Nationals do when they judge a Concours catagory and find out someone rebodiey a say 186S GTS from a bog stock one? I know they have a body number in the firewall so its harder.

--- Updated ---

however if you cut throug the windscreen pillars and through the floor and attach anew rear shell ( whith correct attachments) it is still a sandman or a reashell

ummm good luck with that one... haha You want to trust your welding as you are bouncing along the road. Imagine the whole arse end detaching and sliding off the chassis.... not for me. haha

Mauser

[wbute]

I think people are getting "original condition" and "fake" confused.

More to the point, how many Sandmans have already been through mega dollar rebuilds and the owners have assumed they have the original bodies? That ute in the Euchca car museum could just as easily have been rolled in the first week of ownership and had a insurance re-shell with the correct new body.

The point is that not one Sandman could ever be proven to still have its original body. You could no doubt prove it has the correct body, but not the original body.